a conversation about life, choices, rules and religion

a conversation i had recently with someone in oslo:
--------------------------

CH

interesting..
11:44amTLG

about daniel?
11:45amCH

yeah..
11:45amTLG

yeah i never remembered reading that before
11:45amCH

im wondering where the limits go..

hvor går grensene...for hva som er godt og hva som ikke er godt..
11:45amTLG

i think it all depends on you yourself
11:45amCH

tror ikke det er det vi opplever som "magi" som ikke er godt
11:45amTLG

how you feel
11:46amCH

yes..
11:46amTLG

i think we limit ourselves
11:46amCH

how much one can take..
11:46amTLG

you can choose not to limit yourself

i am kind of experimenting with this

so CH do you still live in EVJN?

i remember meeting you and your sister, but only for a day or two
11:47amCH

husker jeg fikk i en velsignelse en gang...ser dine spm om ting som er viktig..mye mellom himmel og jord vi ikke forstår men kan ikke si alt nå..
11:47amTLG

and i remember tnns or whatever his name was
11:48amCH

d var nesten før jeg var bevisst mine egne spm;)
11:48amTLG

så hvilke spørsmål har du?
11:48amCH

so we only met twice he he...i remember you well..
11:48amTLG

:):)
11:49amCH

we all had a waterfight in EVJN..

i live in oslo
11:49amTLG

oh cool
11:49amCH

LHZ and DZ in EVJN
11:49amTLG

we live in BRGNN
11:49amCH

ok..

cool
11:49amTLG

is DZ some kind of returned missionary?
11:49amCH

yep

form new york..
11:50amTLG

i thought i remembered something about that
11:50amCH

they met in EVJN..
11:50amTLG

is he ok?

for your sister?
11:50amCH

yes he is!
11:50amTLG

thats good
11:50amCH

he is a good man! i remember my grandmother...
11:50amTLG

great
11:50amCH

she liked him!

and she has good vibes;)

so do you stilll relate to the church?
11:52amTLG

we go every now and then

im still in a reevaluation process of everything i believe in

reading a lot of different philosophies
11:55amTLG

i still think the lds church has good intentions and the world would be a nicer place to live if everybody was nice like jesus (but not necessarily mormon) :):) i am no fan of mormon culture though

i feel very different than many people in the church, like i cant relate/understand them
11:56amCH

how?

how do you feel about the gospel?
11:56amTLG

and there are certain things that i dislike or think actually arent relevant

ill have to think about it and make a list, i have been wanting to do this for a while now

the gospel in general i feel is a good thing
11:57amCH

i cant let go of it i think..
11:58amTLG

but i think sometimes certain rules overstep peoples privacy or are based on some kind of long christian tradition
11:58amCH

there are many things about the culture im not a great fan of..
11:58amTLG

like masturbation, for example

i just really cant see that this should be a big deal

and i remember growing up feeling ashamed, and i dont want to feel that way, i think it is a great tool that can help a lot of people live better lives

especially in marriage

you asked, so im explaining myself :):)

if you look at the word "onanering" in norwegian, it is completely wrong

if you read the story of onan, it has nothing to do with masturbation, it is about coitus interruptus

meaning that instead of inseminating the woman to produce offspring for his dead brother (he was commanded to do this), he pulled out instead right before ejaculation

sorry, but i think this is important :):)
12:02pmCH

its ok..
12:02pmTLG

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/38

yeah like you, i am not letting go of the church, i dont think i have to either
12:03pmCH

i think like you said..in the end we choose our limits..
12:03pmTLG

there is much good, and i will hold onto the good and disregard what i feel is not right
12:03pmCH

but the guidence is there to help..
12:04pmTLG

sure
12:04pmCH

there are much i could contribute with..
12:04pmTLG

also i think many people in the church suffer from some sort of rameumptom complex
12:04pmCH

buts to me its a bit personal..
12:05pmTLG

yes and it should be personal

i dont like the idea of people mediating between me and god

unless i feel it is of some help and i have asked for it
12:05pmCH

i understand..

like nephi...figure it out in your own mind and then ask me..
12:06pmTLG

i dont like how many people in the church act as if lds are gods chosen people

yeah right

good example

i try to do that
12:07pmCH

but sometimes i know im trying to figure it out on my own cause im afarid wht his answer will be;)
12:07pmTLG

:):)
12:07pmCH

i think thats my gretest question...
12:08pmTLG

well, i think in the end it is gods responsibility to prove himself and his doctrines to us

i always compare my relationship to him, with my own kids

i expect god to be even nicer to me and more understanding and loving to me than i am with my own kids

and dont misread that

i am trying to be the best father i can be for them

but i feel that an omnipotent god is a lot more advanced and capable than i am

i dont put my kids to tests and ask them to do meaningless stuff and i try to explain as best i can the rewards they will get if they do what i ask of them

i always want to help them learn and grow and be happy and find out what they want to do with their lives
12:12pmCH

i understand..but i also like the principle that...if you want some tougher muscles you must lift some heavy wights..?

the balance between there is the art...

between lead and let go...
12:13pmTLG

yes there is a balance, and that balance is different for everyone
12:13pmCH

true.
12:13pmTLG

my children are all very different

some things work for some or one of them only

or none

:):)
12:14pmCH

hehe..

i know...

so i guess that s the question...
12:14pmTLG

thinking out loud here... back to masturbation, it has been around for mans entire existence and is never mentioned in any of the scriptures...
12:14pmCH

hvor er mine grenser...?
12:15pmTLG

ja, det er det du som bestemmer til syvende og sist

and when the church makes rules of how people can dress, i feel that is wrong

they should have nothing to do with fashion
12:16pmCH

but do you understand the principle?
12:17pmTLG

the thing is that fashions change, what is acceptable today wasnt acceptable before...
12:18pmTLG

it has nothing to do with any eternal truth
12:18pmCH

hey..adam and eve felt natural being nakes.;);)
12:18pmTLG

yes
12:18pmCH

naked...thers a bueuty in that..
12:18pmTLG

there is actually a mormon nudist forum on the internet :):)

i saw an interesting movie the other day with peter o'toole, where he said "the most beautiful thing a man will ever see in his lifetime is the body of a naked woman"

i have to somewhat agree :):)
12:22pmTLG

god has seen everybody naked too so.... and think about spirits roaming around, they see everything too :):)
12:23pmCH

i dont think theres another answer than we already know..we are just searching and trying pushing the gresser..

grenser..
12:24pmTLG

i was talking to a friend the other day, hes lds, and we were talking about healing, and he said, i kid you not, i think anybody who heals, who is not doing it by the priesthood is doing it by the poewr of the devil. i was completely shocked
12:24pmCH

hm...

so what does he think about the light of christ then?
12:24pmTLG

i cant believe some people can be so narrow minded
12:25pmCH

i talked to ole podhorny...he said..there is diffrence on healers..
12:25pmTLG

yeah i think i mentioned something about that, and that god has people/prophets all over the world, the lds church even teaches this

there are also stories of a pioneer woman who healed some oxen

she didnt just heal a person, she healed animals

what did he say?
12:26pmCH

he said it depens on the healer...
12:26pmTLG

yes i think so too
12:26pmCH

det er forskjell på healere..sa han..

i talked alot with a lady who reads energy...

gets "bilder"...på det du er osv..
12:27pmTLG

yes there are people with good intentions and people with bad intentions, some have mixed intentions
12:27pmCH

yes..
12:27pmTLG

i think few things are black and white
12:28pmCH

but god...is pure..

all white..;);)
12:28pmTLG

my wife and i have been watching shows like "åndednes makt" and "jakten på den 6. sans" and it has really opened my eyes
12:28pmCH

bacause he is able to see the whole picture and konsekvenser..
12:29pmTLG

but i think the whole picture is constantly in motion because people have free will

part of the "whole picture"

at least
12:32pmCH

what di you mean?
12:32pmTLG

it depends on how you define "the whole picture"
12:32pmCH

yes..

im thinking with gods knowledge..

im often thinking about the story about the son who went away and came back...the big party that was thrown at him..

and i remember thinking..but he had alot of experience out there..

and the son home...faithful servant..

i often felt like him...

feeling...lurt...
12:36pmCH

how do you define the whole picture?
12:38pmTLG

i think maybe i cant because i dont know what really is out there, i dont gods position, i think we need more info about who god really is and his relationship to everything else in the multiverse

i dont know gods position

physically

is he outside of our universe? are there multiple universes? (multiverse)

the lds church teaches that he has a father, etc, and that everything is eternal

but science has shown that at least our solar system is about 4.6 billion years old, so things have a beginning and most likely an end

so it is hard to say what the whole picture really is, i know what i know, but i also "know" that there are things i dont know

if you know what im talking about? :):)
12:40pmCH

yes...

i just thought about what you said about human and whole picture..
12:41pmTLG

all samples of the earth, moon, mars and meteorites date no further back than 4.6 billion years

i think that is interesting

and significant
12:41pmCH

but didnt god create earth..

?

cant a planet end but our exixtance not end?
12:42pmTLG

there is something called the cambrian explosion that points to the theory of a creation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
12:42pmCH

maybe i dont understand your point of view?
12:42pmTLG

interesting

yes i think we are spirit inside of a physical body

there is way too much evidence to be able to deny that

so if a planet ends, we as spirit will continue, i believe
12:43pmCH

so how does a planets end contridicts with everything eternal?
12:43pmTLG

but where is the question

!

since spirits from earth live on earth

if earth was suddenly blown to pieces by a star wars death star, where would all the spirits go?
12:44pmCH

åndeverden..he he
12:44pmTLG

i just meant that the beginning was interesting, but we have no explanation about the beginning of god

but åndeverdenen is here on earth

according to lds doctrine
12:45pmCH

?

just in another consciousness?
12:46pmTLG

well we normally dont see spirits, but many people do, and researches have definitely proven the existance of their energy

spirit is a physical energy
12:46pmCH

but wherer d they help them over to the other side?
12:46pmTLG

in some form of matter
12:46pmCH

and does lds teach this?
12:46pmTLG

exactly, i am still trying to learn more about that "føre dem over til den andre siden"

i dont understand that

yet
12:47pmCH

but the lds church teeches that åndeverdenen is here on earth?
12:47pmTLG

in alma it says that when a spirit leaves the body it is immediately returned to the god that made it
12:47pmCH

but if chirst has a physical perfect body?
12:47pmTLG

but this has to be a figure of speech

or can be true in some cases and in other places regarded as a figure of speech, it must have multiple meanings

well christ was given a resurrected body

and the lds church believes everybody will be given one at one point in time, and that many dead have already received their perfect body

the first resurrection is happening already, and started with the resurrection of christ

it is not something in the future

it started 2000 years ago
12:49pmCH

men jeg har forstått at de venter på tusenårsriket?
12:49pmTLG

and will continue throughout "the millenium", which also has theoretically started
12:50pmCH

tror du at vi trenger dåp? og tempelekteskap?
12:50pmTLG

alle må sikkert vente en stund, men de som må vente til etter tusenårsriket er de som skal stå opp i den andre oppstandelsen"
12:50pmCH

og de som har stått opp nå?
12:50pmTLG

jeg er ikke sikker på det egentlig
12:51pmCH

i feel so scizofrenic..i just waht to be free and happy and enjoy life..
12:51pmTLG

de som har stått opp vet jeg ikke hvor er, her, hos gud??

begge steder

??
12:51pmCH

but im still so dependent on understanding to be able to choose..
12:52pmTLG

i suggest you live free and enjoy life then :):)

and keep reading and thinking and when you truly feel that something sticks and feels right, then stick with it

like i said, it is truly gods responsibility to prove himself to us. he has sent us here and taken away our memory of the pre-existance, theoretically speaking
12:53pmCH

but we said yes..
12:53pmTLG

we were told that we said yes
12:54pmCH

we chose to do this experience..
12:54pmTLG

you dont remember saying yes do you?
12:54pmCH

but thats the point...a part of the challenge..

the lady ive been talking to say these..we chose to go down here to do our experiences on this level of energy..
12:55pmTLG

but god has put us in a state of no knowledge so it really is up to him to reveal himself to us

we cannot comprehend god if he doesnt help

convincingly
12:55pmCH

but i think its all there?
12:56pmTLG

well then you're convinced then?

:):)
12:56pmCH

hehe about what?

that god exists?
12:56pmTLG

about everything you're wondering about

if i erase my childrens memory and put them on an island, can i expect that they will find me without me doing anything?
12:57pmCH

no i cant see cnseqenses of all things..
12:57pmTLG

can i expect them to believe that they are my children and that i exist unless i show myself to them and reinstate their memory?

i think we are given way too little information and not enough understanding about eternal consequences, both good and bad

what can we really expect after this life?

some might say "everything that god has". but what does he have?

we have no clue

we know practically nothing about anything outside of this life
1:00pmCH

but isnit it the same things we experience here..just in another level??

so start imagine?;)
1:00pmTLG

i dont know, is it?
1:01pmCH

the power of our thoughts...

and effect...

in gods glory one think and make and physical effect maybe..
1:02pmTLG

if everyone is going to be resurrected, would there be put a physical barrier between me and my wife in the afterlife if we hadnt been married in the temple so we couldnt have sex, for example?

what IS temple marriage really+

?

what IS sealing children to their parents really for, when each of our children will be off doing things with their spouses? what is the whole point?

these are things i havent found answers to yet

i dont mean to appear negative CH, i am just asking honest questions :):) and i am still open and searching for answers to them :):)
1:03pmCH

it says one place...themple ordinances is to bond hele menneskeslekten..
1:04pmTLG

ok, but why?

bond them how?
1:04pmCH

why do i haveto suffer for my parents mistakes?
1:04pmTLG

right :):)
1:04pmCH

why do a whole generation suffer from another generations choices..
1:04pmTLG

exactly
1:05pmCH

i told this to my brother in law..he isaid..your trying to find a loop hole,)

i think he is right;)
1:05pmTLG

why was there ever any need for blacks to be denied the priesthood for thousands of years?
1:05pmCH

but then you have physical laws..
1:05pmTLG

i dont think he is right
1:05pmCH

and dna..
1:05pmTLG

i think those are honest questions
1:05pmCH

but my intention...

is trying to find o loop hole..
1:06pmTLG

well, yes only you know your intentions :):)
1:06pmCH

i knew that before he joked about it..
1:06pmTLG

but maybe you are trying to find a loophole because you cant understand some things

you are trying to find a loophole for a reason
1:07pmCH

its true..im wndering if im the weak soul who is in need of bounderies to be good..
1:07pmTLG

maybe you are and maybe that is good for you

the important thing is that you find what is good for you and makes you happy

apparently god wants us to be happy

I want to be happy :):)

people say the gospel is a plan of happiness, i am still trying to find out the meaning of this

i dont know if i have ever felt happy

i am happy when i get answers to my prayers and get what i want

dragging my children to church when they dont want to go is not happiness and is only stress
1:10pmCH

but the again do you have the whole picture of who you are as a soul?
1:10pmTLG

i have usually only felt restricted by certain rules

no i do not

i dont have the "whole picture"

i dont understand everything

we should be given the "whole picture" on a silver platter, then decide and choose where we go and what we do

that wouldnt erase the need for faith

it would give us correct information to base our decisions on

we would still have to have faith that we would get promised rewards
1:12pmCH

but how would you be tested on following direction of love and faith?
1:12pmTLG

i really think we have way too little information to base our decisions on, so we have to choose to live in a way that makes us happy, based on the information we have, no one can expect any more than that

by my actions

if i show love, if i am obedient

again i relate it to my relationship between me and my children

i explain the rules, i tell them the reward for obedience and the consequences for disobedience, and why obedience to the rules is important

i dont just tell them to do something and say "just trust me"

it is unfair and unkind to keep them in the dark

i WANT them to understand what i understand, so they can live happily
1:16pmCH

but isnt there a joy in trying some things for yourself..in the dark and then experience how one is able to find the way
1:16pmTLG

my whole purpose is to give them a better life than i have had, to avoid the mistakes i have made, but in the end after i have given them my knowledge it is still up to them to choose for themselves

but should we just let our children sit at the table and starve so they can figure out how to make food for themselves

?

there is a time for everything, yes

i also know i will not always be with them everywhere they go

and i will die sometime too, hopefully before they die

so they will get enough opportunities to learn on their own :):)

are you a parent?
1:18pmCH

so we are always on..hvor går grensene...til hvilken tid er hva rett?

nope
1:19pmTLG

once you become a parent, your world and way of thinking will be taken to a new/different level

it is something you have to experience :I)
1:19pmCH

yes probably..
1:19pmTLG

grensene, tror jeg er noe vi bør sette hver for oss
1:19pmCH

but i still watch my sisters being moms..and how they do it..
1:20pmTLG

it isnt the same :):)

trust me
1:20pmCH

true
1:20pmTLG

it will be completely different when THEIR future hangs in your hands :):)

responsibility is a funny ingredient
1:21pmCH

true