richard dawkins' response to pascal's wager

i think the key points dawkins makes in his book the god delusion are:

* one is not just betting on one god, there have been hundreds/thousands of gods throughout homo sapien history. if you bet on yahweh and baal turns out to be "the god", then you're also screwed.

pascal's wager doesn't "work" in a polytheistic scenario.

* you can't fake belief. if an omniscient god actually existed, those who really don't/can't believe, but only say they do, wouldn't be able to fool him.

my comments on the victor stenger vs william lane craig debate

part 1

they're using the word "god" as if it is something/someone everybody agrees on about who/what he/it is...its easy to disprove god of the old testament at least: simply disprove the scientific claims made by YHWH through his prophets or his own mouth, e.g.:

1) first human offspring was Cain (genesis 4:1) approximately 6000-7000 years ago.

2) global flood during noah's life


part 2

0:15 is william lane craig's mind already made up? yes. hypocrite =)

at first it sounded like he was saying this in an accusatory manner, but i found out later that he just talks like this....really tiring.



part 3

08:09 "if dr stenger wants us to believe atheism instead, then he must first tear down all 6 of the reasons i presented..."

did you submit these 6 reasons to dr stenger before the debate or should he just do it on the fly? if on the fly, would you submit to the same challenge from dr stenger? =)

01:54 craig: "there's nothing really wrong with your raping someone". i think an atheist person being raped can objectively disagree.



part 5

0:45 "NONE of these scientists would NOT believe if they were presented with sufficient evidence" <-- yes, the difference between scientists and theists. well put. part 6

he keeps harping on about the resurrection as if it is some provable/undeniable fact. jeez. i like how most atheists "argue" so calmly, while most theists seem to take an aggresive and "loud" stance, it is tiring to listen to this craig...

07:24 "there is abundant evidence of god's actions in the world. in fact what i would say is the very existence of the universe itself is abundant evidence for the existence of god...the origin of the universe out of absolutely nothing"

hmm, i'm pretty sure craig is referring to the big bang, a scientific "revelation" and is nowhere a part of biblical scripture. religion hijacking science, trying to prove science wrong, with science. genesis only alludes to the creation of earth and stars, ie MW

ironic how the american flag is placed next to craig's podium instead of stenger's =)

craig is complaining about assertions from stenger, well, 06:38 craig: "if god does not exist, objective moral values do not exist". an assertion. "objective values do exist". also an assertion.



part 7

it seems like stenger could have just left it at the cyclical universe model, there was no cause to the universe, it has always existed, just expanding and contracting, big banging and big crunching =)


part 8

01:29-01:51 whammy =)
stenger points out that in genesis, the earth was created BEFORE the sun ( 01:29-01:51 ).

genesis 1:1-3
"
1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
"

the very first verses of the old testament are at odds with science!



part 9

03:27 craig: "the bible teaches that god's moral law is instinctively written on the heart of every individual, so that we have an instinctual moral knowledge that we ought to love our children rather than torture them and abuse them"

stenger already showed that there is no objective morality: different religions have different versions of morality

03:53 craig: "if you dont have a god as a transcendent anchor or basis for morality, then moral values are purely ephemeral byproducts of socio-biological evolution"

since there ARE NO objective morals, we simply reverse what you just said to prove that there IS NO transcendent god.

04:55 moderator: "how do we know, objectively, that we're being objective?"
craig: "i dont think any of us are totally objective, uh, that is one of the few (nervous laugh) insights of post-modernists, i think, i dont think they have many good insights, but one of them would be that all of us are historically conditioned, we're midstream so to speak, and therefore the search for pristine objectivity, and neutral point of view, view from nowhere is really impossible"

ok, you just killed the objective morality assertion

stenger makes a good point about "covariance": morality is not the same from all points of view



part 10

00:24 craig: "any thing that exists has to have a reason why it exists, either in an external cause or in the necessity of its own nature"

does god exist? if so, then what was the external cause for gods existence (i dont understand what he means by "in the necessity of its own nature"). what was the external cause of the external cause of gods existence? ad infinitum.

if god doesnt need an external cause for its existence, then why should the universe? why should anything at all require it?

01:48 craig: "now dr stenger also says 'but you dont need to believe in the big bang theory, there could have been some pre-existing universe, a cyclic universe, but notice how he admits you must have an equally plausible model, but the fact is that these cyclical models are not equally plausible with the standard big bang model"

no, stenger says in part 7 at 04:56 "the universe need not have *begun* with the big bang...there are many prominent physicists and cosmologists who publish papers in reputable scientific journals proposing various scenarios by which the big bang appeared naturally out of a pre-existing universe that need not itself had a beginning. one such recent example is a cyclic universe". since cyclic models (e.g. steinhardt-turok, baum-frampton) *incorporate* the big bang and additionally provide an explanation for the big bang's appearence, they are equally plausible models, if not more plausible, supported by the fact that it is an active field of academic inquiry.

04:45 craig: "as for the moral argument, dr stenger agrees, there is no evidence for objective morality. if you agree with me however that things like racism, the holocaust, rape, child abuse are really objectively wrong, then you will agree with me that god exists."

first of all, dr. "twister of words" craig, stenger DOESNT AGREE that there is no evidence for objective morality, he DISAGREES with you and has shown that there IS NO evidence for objective morality, while you maintain that objective morality is "instinctively written on the heart of every individual" as stated in part 9 starting at 03:27.

secondly, even if stenger might agree with you on these points, others DONT! not everyone does. THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE MORALITY, thus, by your own reasoning, THERE IS NO GOD.

05:35 craig: "you've got to believe that a contingently existing universe inexplicably exists for absolutely no reason at all"

not sure what he means by "contingently existing", but why does god exist then?

"you've got to believe in a logically incoherent model of the origin of the universe which no other scientist in the world accepts"

what model is this? certainly not a model stenger made proposed himself, so what about its author? i'm sure the author(s) of a cyclical universe model (e.g. steinhardt-turok, baum-frampton) believe it to be plausible along with the peers who have reviewed it and allowed it to be published?

"or else you've got to believe in an infinite number of randomly ordered parallel universes without any evidence for their existence"

stenger never proposed any model consisting of parallel universes

"fourth you've got to believe there's no moral difference between a mother who loves and nurtures her children and a sexual predator who preys upon them"

again, it's already established that there is no objective morality, and some people *will* (and do) find a difference here and others will not

"five, you've got to believe on the basis of your own authority that the majority of the world's historians who have studied the life of jesus are mistaken about the historicity of the empty tomb"

so what? christians claim that all non-christians are mistaken about the the right way to be saved (jesus).

"six, you've got to believe that everyone who claims to have a personal experience of god is deluded"

again, christians claim that all non-christians who dont have a personal experience of god are deluded or deceived by the devil. and atheists could simply respond "no, not deluded, simply human, simply wired to believe in the supernatural/unseen"

"and still leaves you without any solid case for atheism"

like i've said before, disproving scientific claims made by the bible is a great place to start. also theists are the ones who bear the burden of proof of their claims of the unevident and invisible.

08:12 stenger: "in each of these cases we can give a plausible, natural explanation that violates no known principles of science and requires no divine action. dr craig does not succeed in proving that these natural explanations are wrong. he tries to argue that they're implausible, but in fact everything i've talked about is consistent with all the knowledge we have in science and in perfect agreement with existing experimental and theoretical facts. so i dont think dr craig succeeds in proving that god exists."



part 11

05:27 stenger: "finally, an all good, all powerful, all knowing god, if one existed, he would have the power to comfort a child dying an excruciating death from leukemia. he chooses not to do so. is there a person in this room who would not ease that child's suffering, given the power? i would do it. jesus christ could appear before me and tell me not to do it because it has some ultimate purpose, but i would STILL DO IT! even if i faced eternal damnation, i would DO IT."

how can atheists use the words "moral" and "immoral"?

people say (says christopher hitchens) "how can you talk about morality and say something is immoral if you reject god and the bible--the source of morality, the source of the ten commandments?"

well, atheists can, for at least two reasons:

* the bible/yahweh doesnt own morality. just look at all the non-believers in the world who do good, not to mention people in other cultures who may never have heard of yahweh or the bible!

* it's using the language of theists so they understand what you are talking about. speaking to them on their own terms.

christopher hitchens == jesus of atheism

christopher hitchens, with all his wisdom and ability to crush any theistic argument in a debate is like the modern day atheist jesus

doing good without religion

atheist: X is bad about the church.

believer: but what about all the GOOD that the CHURCH does?

atheist: its PEOPLE who do good, and they can do the same good WITHOUT the church.

believer: but they do good BECAUSE of the church.

atheist: if they do good ONLY because of their church, then they are terrible human beings, worse than the "godless", "evil" non-believers they despise. there are plenty of atheists, non-theists, and agnostics who do good WITHOUT the need for a god or WITHOUT the need to be told to do good.

science denier statement + my rebuttal

my friend, the science denying mormon:

I am not one who needs scientific proofs. I Get my answers, I have found peace, and Need no DNA proof, that is written on a piece of paper. Verry scientific by the way.....
And i already knew that you wrote yourself out. I guess I can refe...r to a great Metallica song, "sad but true" ; ) Wich also leads me to another great song by Whitney Houston " I will always love you" : D

my response:

listen to yourself. these are the classic words of what is called "a science denier". dont you want scientific proof that a medicine works and doesnt have dangerous side effects before you take it? dont you want scientific proof that... a new airplane model has been thoroughly tested before you get on it for a transatlantic flight? if you were accused of rape, wouldnt you demand scientific (dna) evidence and rely on that evidence to get you acquitted? did religion make your video camera or your computer? no, it was made using the scientific process. did religion make your car or your clothes or the birth control you use? religion only takes people's money, tells them to be nice while at the same time telling them to hate certain people and gives people false hope. homo sapiens have existed for at least 100,000 years. the bible claims the first offspring (cain) was born around 6000-7000 years ago.
can i suggest a video for you by christopher hitchens (the best of the hitchslap)?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQorzOS-F6w

mormons rank among the least liked religions in the US

Several recent studies, including one by the authors of American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, rank Mormons among the least liked U.S. faiths.

To modify that impression, producers of the "I'm a Mormon" series sought members who were atypical, articulate and photogenic.

and they lie about who they really are! (inarticulate and non-photogenic) awesome =)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/25/faiths-ad-campaigns-chase_n_813987.html

draper lds temple chandelier in celestial room cost $240,000

just got a mail on the exmormon yahoo group saying:

I went through the Draper Temple prior to dedication. When we were in
celestial room the guide proudly pointed to the opulent chandelier in the
center of the room and said it cost $240,000.

I wonder if the temple costs in poor countries keep the tithes flowing
offering false hopes of riches to members. Do they still do the consecration
ritual ? Do they still preach if one pays tithing they will be blessed
materially?

Rick

this is just ridiculous if this is true... what a fucking waste of money!

respect abraham? No. Fuck you.

christopher hitchens in the hitchslaps compilation:
05:27 "my children, who are everthing to me, and who are my only chance of even getting a glimpse of a second life, let alone an immortal one, i'll tell you something, if i was told to sacrifice them to prove my devotion to god, if i was told to do what all monotheists are told to do, and admire the man [abraham] who said 'yes i'll gut my own kid to show my love of god', i'd say 'No. Fuck you.'"

why does god let bad things happen?

he doesnt. shit happens. god doesnt exist. the new testament even says so (see below, matt. 5:45).

http://lds.org/new-era/2003/07/qa-questions-and-answers?lang=eng

"Bad things can be turned to our good if we seek to do God’s will." (D&C 122:7)

can+if is not a promise, its still leaves room for doubt. can is not will. what use is this then? its the same as the scripture that says that it rains “on the just and on the unjust” (Matt. 5:45).

"By enduring our trials well, we become stronger and more understanding."

does the little girl who is gang raped by grown men become stronger and more understanding?

"Rather than ask, “Why me?” ask, “What can I learn from this?”"

is she not allowed to ask "why me?"? tell me, what the fuck should she *learn* from this?

"We can turn to the Savior in any trial because He knows exactly how we feel and can help us."

i'm sorry, i dont remember reading about how the "savior" was gang raped as a child?!

some might argue "well, he suffered everything everyone else suffered in the garden of gethsemene"

first of all, think how ridiculously impossible this is (if this doesnt scream *mythology* to you then you've got problems), plus did he have his ass ripped wide open and taste 8 different men's semen in his mouth in the garden of gethsemane? did he experience pain for days on end? no it was only for a short period according to the fairytale. so he DIDNT suffer everything everyone else did because *time* is also a part of suffering.

there is no god or jesus, no sin or atonement. shit happens.
* good things happen to "bad" people (it's not "to make god's punishment of them in the afterlife more just" or the equally ridiculous "to make the blessings of the righteous in the afterlife justified" [see luke 16:19-31])
* good things happen to "good" people (you're not "being blessed")
* bad things happen to "bad" people (they're not being punished)
* bad things happen to "good" people (you're not "being tested")

david wolpe vs sam harris - "does god exist?" debate highlights + commentary

i'm not done with all of the videos, but here is what i've got so far:

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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 2

02:36 we come from generations of people who did not know a damn thing about the causes of events in the world that really concern them: the spread of disease, the failure of crops, the weather. religious discourse has changed, we're not sacrificing people, happily, now, but it has change by virtue of progress from the *outside*.

07:48 the belief that jesus was born of a virgin, may be a cherished claim for most christians, it is also a claim about biology. this is why you can't keep religion and science apart, their truth claims cannot be disentangled.

08:23
wolpe: natural laws, which themselves, by the way, are an article of faith
harris: you'll notice how nobody says this in an airplane at 30,000 feet.

09:27 59% of the (US) population, according to gallup, [believe] that jesus will return to earth to judge us, this entails claims about the human survival of death, apparently the human flight without the aid of technology. this is what people are visualizing...

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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 3

00:36
harris: this is whats anti-scientific, when your convictions dont scale with your evidence. i'm actually openminded about the survival of death.
wolpe: right, you say about reincarnation that there could even be evidence for it in your book.
harris: yes, i could easily tell you what would constitute evidence, i'm not saying this evidence exists. i could tell you what would constitute evidence for the truth of mormonism, its just not forthcoming.

01:05 there are all kinds of scientific things you can say about religion, which religious people tend not to want to hear. you can say, for instance, that mormonism is objectively less likely to be true than christianity. why can you say this? because mormonism is just christianity, plus some rather stupid ideas.

08:46
wolpe: if you want to find intolerance, you look for atheistic regimes. would you rather live in north korea or south korea. south korea is christian.
harris: dont answer that question =) this is a trick and this is one of the reasons why i'm not a fan of the term atheism. atheism is a term totally without content. its like being a non-astrologer. we dont have a word for someone whos not an astrologer and if astrologers suddenly became ascendant in our society, we wouldnt need to invent non-astrology as a discipline, we could talk about reason and science and evidence and common sense and bullshit and put astrologers in their place. so it could be with religion.

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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 4

00:46 this notion that stalin and hitler and pol pot were doing what they did because of atheism, because of a non-belief in god... ask yourself, is too much skeptical inquiry really what's wrong with north korea? the north koreans are a cargo cult armed with nuclear weapons right now. they think that the food aid that we give them is a devotional offering to the genius of their dear leader. they are systematically impoverished, both physically and in terms of information. any knowledge is too much knowledge in north korea. this is not a paradise of reasonableness. now all i'm advocating is that we use the same standards that of rationality that we use in every other area of our lives when people start making claims about the divine origin of books and the virgin birth of some people and the glorious end to history where the good people will be raptured into the sky. these are the kinds of things we should apply pressure to and it is taboo to apply pressure to these claims and religious moderation, unfortunately ramifies that taboo.

04:26 there are few claims there that we have to shelf. you just claimed that i got my morality from a religious tradition. ask yourself, when you pick up the bible or the jewish bible or any holy book, and find ethical wisdom in there, what is that process like? you pick up leviticus or deuteronomy and you find that if a woman is not a virgin on her wedding night, youre supposed to stone her to death on her fathers doorstep. ok, presumably you choose to reject that pearl of ancient wisdom. and then you find another line, i think this is also in leviticus, love your neighbor as yourself, or the golden rule, as preached in the new testament, and this resonates with you as a good operating premise, to generate further moral intuitions. if nothing else, its a good ideal to live toward. the guarantor of your morality in that case is not the book, its in your brain. and this kind of truth testing is something that we bring to religion.

05:45 now religion does a lot of work on people and you can get good people to believe some terrible things, in the name of god, and this is what worries me about religion. we waste time talking about stalin and hitler and pol pot. these were political religions, dogmatisms through and through and when anyone started to make to much sense, in opposition to these dogmatisms they were carted off and killed. these were not contexts in which rational discourse prevailed and the best idea won. so to call them science is to misuse the term. in the case of hitler, hitler never really repudiated jesus and he used jesus in his speech and he was fascilitated by a thousand years of religious fulminating against the jews in the name of christianity. religion is implicated, certainly, in the holocaust. so its not a conversation worth having.


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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 5

00:15 in what sort of regime are you likely to be able to get a society, ala america, where that is minimized?

01:45
wolpe: every tradition is not made just of propositions, its something thats lived, is bred in you and if it works well, produces magnificent human beings.
harris: and the problem is there are many gods and books on offer
wolpe: yes, thats true
harris: and they make incompatible claims about how we should live in this world.
wolpe: thats true

02:25 i dont know how we are going to get to a future where muslims believing in martyrdom and christians believing in the rapture will be a good recipe for good neighbors

02:54 we need to cease to reward people for pretending to know things they do not, and the only area of discourse where we do this is on the subject of god

04:29
harris: when even the doubts of experts are used to confirm a doctrine, how could it possibly be disproved? you see this all the time in religion, and this is precisely what you dont see in science.
wolpe: thats right, but thats not a bad thing. first of all, ask yourself this, even despite her doubts, if mother theresa werent a devout christian, do you think she would have spent her life among the lepers of calcutta?
harris: many secular people do just that sort of thing.

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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 6

02:53
harris: you were absent for all of human history before your birth. the idea that you simply cant imagine not existing after death, is really just a lack of trying. and granted this is terrifying, not so much in our own case, but terrifying in the case of those we love. and we are terrified to lose the people we love in this world. religion is the strategy we have adapted to keep that terror at bay.
moderator: if not religion, then what do you have?
harris: its not that you necessarily have a replacement for everything religion does on every question. you dont replace the belief in santa claus with something that does exactly what the belief in santa claus did, equally consoling, equally motivating on christmas morning, it doesnt happen.

04:53 harris: there are 3 ways to defend religion: one is to argue that religion is true. that one specific religion is true, that god exists or that the bible was really dictated by him. another is to argue that religion is useful, that religion is the basis for morality. please notice that this is a very different track to run on. and it says nothing about whether or not god exists. even if i conceded that religion is profoundly useful, so useful as to be indispensable, people without religion will just rape and kill each other and we dont want that so by all means, fill the churches and mosques and synagogues. that would not, for a moment, grant credence to the idea that one of our books was dictated by an omnisient being or that such a being exists. religion could function like a placebo. i could invent a religion for you right now that would be guaranteed to be useful and more useful than any religion in existence and you would know it would be untrue. right at this moment i could invent a religion where the precept is be kind to others, dont lie, cheat, steal or kill, and this is where it gets novel, make sure your children make every effort to understand science and mathematics to the best of their abilities, and if you dont do that youll be tortured for an eternity after death by a 17 headed demon named dexter. if we could spread this faith to billions right now we would live in a better world. if we could replace islam with this faith we would live in a better world, for starters. but that wouldnt lend the slightest credence to the idea that such a demon exists.
wolpe: can i tell you why i disagree?
harris: so youre going to argue that it would lend credence to the idea that such a demon exists?
wolpe: well youre about to hear what im going to argue.


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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 7

00:00 people actually believe that theyre rewarded after death in certain circumstances, theres a difference between an eternity of happiness and an eternity of suffering and it really matters what name you call god and what you believe and the precise kinds of practices you engage in and in the case of islam, it matters if you die in the right circumstances and nothings more auspicious than dying a martyr

03:39
harris: this is constrained by our common sense in every other domain of discourse. just take for example, the people who think elvis is still alive. whats wrong with this claim? why is this claim not vitiating our academic departments and corporations? i will tell you why, we have not passed laws against believing elvis is still alive. the problem is that when anybody ever seriously represents his belief that elvis is still alive, in a conversation, on a first date, at a lecture, at a job interview, he immediately pays a price. he pays a price in ill-concealed laughter. this is a good thing. he could rattle on about how this is not a scientific claim, this is a matter of faith, when i look at you i see you might be elvis.

04:47 wolpe: except that this is like the bertrand russell teapot analogy that dawkins is so fond of, that there might be a celestial teapot circling the globe. if you make a claim about the existence of a physical entity, like elvis or a teapot, yes that is evaluated the way you evaluate any other physical entity. thats why i keep saying and i will say it again, then it is not a scientific claim to say that i believe you have a soul or that god exists. if it were a scientific claim you could evaluate it the same way you could get a telescope and look for a teapot, but you cant.

harris doesnt repond, so heres my response: science simply evaluates that claim like this: any claim without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. if theres no evidence for the existence of something then theres no reason to believe it. lets just change the teapot analogy to an invisible teapot. you cant prove or disprove that theres an invisible teapot circling the globe. if you argue that your experiences with people give you cause to believe that there is a god, then i aruge that i experience that it rains sometimes, therefore there must be an invisible teapot pouring water down onto the earth.

06:50 i think its a product of an argument you used earlier on, which is a fellacious one, this idea that the percentages of people who do these great things...that most people doing these good things are doing it for religious reasons. well most people most of the time have been religious, throughout human history, theres been noone else to do the job. this is true. most people who have plucked chickens have plucked them while believing in god, but that does not mean you need to believe in god to be able to pluck a chicken.

08:27
wolpe: there is a values vaccuum in societies when you suck religion out of it or force it out, that is to my way of thinking, terrifying.
harris: there is a values vaccuum in religion. there is a values vaccuum in an organization like the catholic church that preaches the sinfulness of condom use is sub-saharan africa. theres a values vaccuum in that same institution that shelters its pedofile priests, literally an army of child rapists based on its own intent upon maintaing its integrity as a religious institution.

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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 8

06:54 "calling stalin an atheist is a false argument. he was not moved on the basis of his critical inquiry, on the basis of his lack of faith, to kill tens of millions of people."

stalin was a murderous psycopath. you could even argue that had stalin been a theist, the outcome might have been even worse.

08:00 its what we do with any other god, but the god of abraham. imagine a political candidate who was forthcoming about his belief in poseidon. it would be a problem. he could not possibly get elected. its not like someone has proved that poseidon doesnt exist. that is russell's teapot, you cannot prove that poseidon doesnt exist, the question is is there any good reason to believe he exists? the answer is no. its the same answer for the god of abraham.

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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 10

01:00 [leviticus] is not a brilliant document. it is an appalling guide to morality. just think how good a book would be if it were authored by the creator of the universe. theres not a single sentence in the bible that could not have been written by somebody living in the iron age. this is a problem for claiming this is the best book we have. if youre living by leviticus or deuteronomy you should be a good jew for all time. now why are you not a good jew for stoning your neighbor for working on the sabbath today? youre not because we have different standards of morality and reasonableness and those came from outside of religion.

02:57 you actually think the book would not be improved if we just changed that line about stoning your children to death if they talk back to you? the moral vision of the bible would not be upgraded just a notch?

03:36 wouldnt you be on firmer ground if it was just unambiguously the most brilliant treatise on morality and still stood the test of time today? if it just repudiated slavery? you and i could improve the bible in 5 minutes.

04:00 wolpe: "the idea is can you create a book which an interpretive community for thousands of years would find nourishment and meaning in. i know that you think thats easy, but i suspect that its more difficult than you think."

yes, too difficult even for the almighty god.

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AJU God Debate: Sam Harris vs. Rabbi David Wolpe, pt. 11

02:38 it should be obvious to all of you and it certainly should be obvious to francis collins that if a fronzen waterfall can testify to the divinity of jesus, anything can mean anything... he actually elaborated on this point in an interview for time magazine, he said the waterfall was frozen in three streams and this put him in the mind of the trinity. this is psychotic thinking in any other context.

07:46 the place to put our faith is in human conversation. this is all we have to work with and the choice is to have a truly modern, 21st century conversation, availing ourselves of all of the tools and all of the wealthy of human effort that is our legacy, or we can fixate our conversation in a prior century. it can be the 7th century if you're a muslim, the 5th century BC if you're a jew, and we can privilege a conversation that was had then among people who could barely see the wisdom of swapping out their child for a goat in a sacrifice and dignify their claims to understanding reality with some kind of special oppressions (?) and i think we should be very leary of doing that, given what we see about us, in the name of religion.

"I do not believe in anything that must be 'believed' in"

someone on the exmormon.org site asked "do you still believe in jesus?" and i like SaviorSelf's answer:

The use of the word "believe" indicates that there is no verifiable proof as to the existence of something.

I don't have to believe in my truck, my house, my computer, my television set, etc. I KNOW for a fact that they exist. But since neither Jesus or God has ever visited me in person (the type of visit that I can record on a video) then I have no verifiable proof that they exist.

neither the lds prophet nor apostles are chosen by revelation/inspiration

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,29637,31069#msg-31069

no help to non-lds hurricane+flood victims in haiti

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article/no-sanctuary-at-leogane-haiti-mormon-church-during-hurricane-tomas/19706704

i think the best quote of the text is "If a church is not also a shelter in a storm, what is it?"

why are lds buildings allowed by god to be burned? aren't they dedicated and blessed to be safe?

that's what someone asked about these mormon church buildings that caught fire

my response:
the priesthood holder who dedicated them was only "speaking as a man" at their dedication... =)

the reason they can get destroyed is because the lds church is a fraud =) there is no protection. its quite simple. the same reason why missionaries can be killed and how the entire first presidency and apostles can be fooled into buying forged documents from mark hofmann =)

if you ask members how these things can happen they simply reply with: "i dont know. all i KNOW is that the church is true"

could you imagine if the mormons ran the nation's judicial system? =) :
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prosecutor: "your honor, the dna evidence, video camera footage of Mr. L Dee Ess committing the murder, AND the murder weapon with his fingerprints on it plainly show that the defendant is guilty."
lds judge: "i dont know mr. prosecutor. all i know is that the defendant is a member of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints, the one and true church on the earth, so there is NO WAY that he is guilty."
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quotes from lds church leaders claiming that american indians and central and south americans are lamanites

this is an ongoing post. i add new things as i find them.

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results for searching lds.org for "sons and daughters of lehi":

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Standing Spotless before the Lord

I love meeting the children of Lehi in spotless white in the numerous temples in the Mexico South Area, where I am currently serving. I feel as President Gordon B. Hinckley did at the dedication of the Guatemala City temple:

“Thou kind and gracious Father, our hearts swell with gratitude for thy remembrance of the sons and daughters of Lehi, the many generations of our fathers and mothers who suffered so greatly and who walked for so long in darkness. Thou hast heard their cries and seen their tears. Now there will be opened to them the gates of salvation and eternal life” (Guatemala City Guatemala Temple dedicatory prayer, in “Their Cries Heard, Their Tears Seen,” Church News, 23 Dec. 1984, 4).

I have seen humble descendants of Lehi come down from the mountains to that temple and openly weep as they stood there in awe.

The Incomparable Gifts

The village is situated in a lush, green, humid area known as the Huasteca, and the inhabitants are sons and daughters of Lehi.

Spencer W. Kimball: A Star of the First Magnitude

He watched over the Lamanite work, was responsible for the placement program, and prophesied of their progress. While he was President, the Church prospered greatly in the lands of Lehi—Mexico, Central and South America, the islands of the sea, and the lands of many Indian tribes of North America.

Songs of the Heart

“Franklin is another example of the faith and dedication that are found among the sons and daughters of Lehi who are growing in the gospel in Otavalo, Ecuador.”

Church Honors Missionaries Who Died in South America

At the service in Wellington, Utah, for Elder Wilson, President Gordon B. Hinckley, First Counselor in the First Presidency, spoke of the work the two elders were accomplishing: “What a mission, to bring light and understanding and truth and testimony, and to witness to the sons and daughters of Lehi of their great inheritance. … We wonder why [these deaths] happened. … We can only say that wisdom of God is greater than our wisdom, that mortal life … is only a passing episode in an eternal journey, and that it really doesn’t matter whether we are here for a long time or a short time in this probation.”

“I think as we weep here,” President Hinckley continued, “there will be those who weep with gladness on the other side of the veil. I think particularly Lehi and Sariah and their children and progeny rejoice over the good work of one who tried to lift and help some of their posterity in the land of Bolivia.”

News of the church: August 2000

The Villahermosa Mexico Temple was dedicated by President Thomas S. Monson in four sessions on 21 May.
“May Thy eternal purposes concerning the sons and daughters of Lehi be realized in this sacred house.

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results for searching lds.org for "descendants of the lamanites":

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The Keys of the Kingdom

These descendants of the Lamanites and others are people with a great past, and with the enlightening power of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they are people with a great future. One of them was sustained yesterday as a General Authority of this church. Recently there were over 8,000 of them assembled in the Plaza de Armas in Cuzco, Peru, to hear the Lamanite Generation from Brigham Young University

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results for searching lds.org for "native americans":

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Down at the Riverside Lamanite Youth Conference

Almost 400 pairs of eyes read over the registration forms for the youth conference in Riverside, California, and there was not a blue pair in the bunch. And that’s what made this a very special and unique conference. It was one of several youth conferences held for young Lamanite members of the Church. They came to Riverside from Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California

The Best of Both Worlds

In wards and branches in many places, these children of Lehi are literally restoring to the house of Jacob the “knowledge of the covenant” (3 Ne. 5:25) that their forebears made with God.
..As Lehi’s seed, we realize that through our baptismal and temple covenants, a great work is to be done before the Lord’s coming—among our people as well as by our people for others.”

We Must Keep One Another

During the 1830s, before Brigham Young started on a mission to Native Americans in the state of New York, the Prophet Joseph Smith laid his hands on Brigham’s head and committed unto him the keys necessary to open the “gospel to every Lamanite nation.” 4 This priesthood blessing, which surprised and unsettled Elder Young, weighed heavily on him for the rest of his life. It gave him a lifelong duty to help the Native American people.

The Song of the Flute

When John Rainer was a young boy in Taos Pueblo, New Mexico, one of his favorite parts of the day was dusk. Like most young Indian children, John would run and play and do chores all day long...
One of the non-Lamanites who studied with Brother Rainer at BYU was Ingrid Jensen of Payson, Utah

Digging into the Book of Mormon: Our Changing Understanding of Ancient America and Its Scripture
the *limited geography* source, claiming mesoamerica as the book of mormon scene. the whole article is relevant.

Research and Perspectives: Recent Studies on the Book of Mormon

Numerous studies have examined intercultural contact between peoples in the Americas and many different parts of the world (such as that described in the Book of Mormon)

Fiction: Walk the Rainbow

In Nabah’s 12th summer he first heard of his Lamanite heritage in the hogan of the family Grey Eyes. Dezbah prayed to the Great Spirit to remove the senseless white man’s words from her son’s heart.

The Book of Mormon: A Sacred Ancient Record

Elder Mark E. Petersen, a member of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, wrote: “As the ancient Israelites suffered a dispersion which sprinkled them among all the nations, so the descendants of Laman and Lemuel [sons of Lehi] were sifted over the vast areas of the western hemisphere. They are found from pole to pole” (Children of Promise, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1981, p. 31; emphasis added).

Teaming Up for Temple Work

He might arouse people’s interest in the Book of Mormon by raising the question of the origin of Native Americans and then describing the pedigree of Father Lehi and his posterity as set forth in the Book of Mormon.

Meet Father Lehi’s Children

Larry J. EchoHawk, twenty-seven, a Pawnee and the first Indian admitted to the Utah Bar Association, keeps the Book of Mormon on his desk. “I learned a lot about being an Indian from it,” he says. “As a boy, growing up in Farmington, New Mexico, I was ashamed to be an Indian. My parents weren’t, but I read those books and wondered if I was like that—savage and ignorant. The teacher would read ‘Indian’ and I’d cringe.”

He was baptized with his family at the age of fourteen. “For an Indian looking for pride, the Book of Mormon was a wonderful experience,” he remembers. “It was really an uplift to me.” The pride in heritage that his parents taught him, his experience going to Brigham Young University, and especially his research into Indian law at law school completed the process.

“Only one thing I don’t understand,” he grins. “It says we’ll be a white and delightsome people someday. I like the color I am. In fact, I don’t know any Indian who wants to change.”

There are certainly things he’d like to change about the way Indians are treated, though. About 95 percent of his clients are Indians and it “makes my blood boil” to see examples of discrimination by individuals, tokenism, especially in government, and paternalism, even in the Church.

“People still react to those old stereotypes,” he comments. “Some leaders don’t have faith in the capabilities of Lamanites. Occasionally when I moved into a new ward in California, I could see some reserve on the part of the bishop to use me—until he found out I was a lawyer. Do you have to have a law degree to be real?”
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The gospel is going to be restored to the Lamanites—to my family and friends. We’re not going to be a mediocre people. We’re going to be leaders in the Church and the nation. I know it’s going to happen. I can see it beginning now.”

Lamanite Generation Tours Latin America

The Lamanite Generation consists of talented young Native Americans, Latin Americans, and Polynesians who perform traditional and modern arrangements of music and dance native to their cultures.

Hope for the American Indian?

There is a very special responsibility for Latter-day Saints to be sensitive to the needs of the Lamanites (Indians) wherever they are in the world.

Lamanites and the Church

It was an informal beginning that has grown into the Indian Student Placement program, touching the lives of more than five thousand Lamanite students during the past school year.

Painting a Mormon Picture

One unusual story is that of Darryl Quesada, a Navajo Indian who lives in Whiteriver, Arizona.
...
President Kimball thinks Darryl is pretty special too! He said that in his mind Darryl and other boys like him “exemplify a new generation of Lamanites emerging in the Church who are prepared for missionary service.”

Native American Conference

“You would not believe what has happened in Latin America. You would be overwhelmed if you had the opportunity to shake hands with Lamanite stake presidents and bishops who have come out of the world and embraced the gospel.

Church History Chronology and Maps

1830, September–October
First missionaries called to preach to the Lamanites (Native Americans) (see D&C 28; 30; 32).

6. Kirtland. Missionaries who had been sent to the Lamanites stopped here in 1830 and baptized Sidney Rigdon and others in the area. Kirtland was the headquarters of the Church from early February 1831 to 12 January 1838. The first temple of this dispensation was built here and was dedicated on 27 March 1836 (see D&C 109).

Lamanite Generation Performs in Spain

The troupe is composed of thirty dancers and singers, all Native Americans, Latin Americans, or Polynesians.

Sweet Home Alabama

Of course, nobody knows exactly where the events ancient prophets describe in that scripture took place, but “when we find something that’s from the same time period, it makes me stop and think that at least there were real people who lived then, that maybe a Nephite or a Lamanite actually held this [arrowhead]. It brings it all to life and helps me know that the scriptures are real. They aren’t just a story somebody made up.”

Newsmaker: Latter-day Saint Chief Elected

Chief Sparrow also desires to emphasize spirituality among her people. Under her leadership, community meetings are now opened and closed with prayer. “The Book of Mormon promises that the Lamanites will blossom as a rose,” she says. “I feel right now that our people are ready to blossom.”

A “Place Prepared” in the Rockies

No doubt Book of Mormon prophecies about the redemption and future power of the Lamanites fed nascent expectations involving the West.

Back to Hole-in-the-Rock

I believe the end result of this ‘peace’ mission will be to have the fulness of the gospel operating among the Lamanites here [Hole-in-the-Rock, UT].

Light on the “Mission to the Lamanites”

In September 1830, the Lord called Oliver Cowdery by revelation to “go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them” (D&C 28:8). The call came a few months after the United States Congress had passed the Indian Removal Bill, an act providing for the relocation of all tribes within United States borders to points beyond.

Peter Whitmer Jr., Parley P. Pratt, Ziba Peterson, and Frederick Williams also received calls to preach to the Lamanites. The 1831 expulsion of these missionaries from Indian territory and their subsequent proposal to establish territorial schools are documented in letters from the contending parties, which are reproduced at the end of this article.

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results for searching lds.org for "children of lehi":

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Lima Temple Dedication Brings Blessings to Saints in Peru, Bolivia

“Bless thy work that it shall blossom and grow in this nation and its neighbor nations of South America. Remember, Father, thine ancient covenant with the children of Lehi that in the latter days thou wouldst favor them and bring to them a knowledge of their Redeemer. Make them strong in faith and magnify them in leadership in thy kingdom,” he said.
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He told of past trips in Peru and Bolivia when he had seen the children of Lehi in poverty, oppressed in spirit by the scarcity of gospel truth among them, and cried within himself, “How long, oh Lord, how long?”

Northward to Mesa

During three days the ordinances, blessings, and sealings of the temple were administered to the children of Lehi in their own tongue by these devoted workers, who had made a special effort to learn in Spanish the instructions that they needed to impart.

Report of the Seminar for Regional Representatives

The President said that “the coming five years will be unbelievable if we will do our part.” He then reported that today “we have some half million Lamanite members in the Church, in the South Seas, in North and South America,” but that this represents only a small portion of the 60 million possible Lamanites in the world.

“A great many of you Regional Representatives are working in the areas of the children of Lehi,” said President Kimball. He reported that of the 840 stakes in the Church at present, “89 stakes are entirely Lamanite, 100 stakes have sizable numbers of Lamanites in them, and then we have approximately 380 stakes with some mixture of Lamanites in them.”
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President Kimball also shared what he described as “my vision for the people of the Lamanites.” He had been assigned to visit Mexico in 1946, three years after being sustained as an apostle and the same year he was appointed chairman of the Church Indian Committee by President George Albert Smith.

“I was dreaming for the people of Mexico,” he said, “and I had a dream of your progress and development. This is precisely what I dreamed. I got up and wrote my dream. Maybe it was a vision: ‘As I look into the future, I see other Lamanites from the isles of the sea and the American continents rise to a great destiny. …

“ ‘I see you children of Lehi with flocks on thousands of hills. Instead of seeing you work for others, I see you managing; the owners of farms, ranches, homes and gardens.

Miracles among the Lamanites

My family and I are presently living in South America among the Lamanites—the children of Lehi, the people of the Book of Mormon, a people of great promise

Maori Traditions and the Mormon Church

Since the days of George Q. Cannon in Hawaii (1851–54), the Church leaders had more and more frequently alluded to the idea that the Polynesians were descendants of Lehi, the early Book Of Mormon prophet. Although the relationship between the Polynesian peoples and the adventurer Hagoth (see Alma 63:5–8) is not clear—he being a Nephite and the Polynesians appearing to be Lamanites—Church leaders have time and time again referred to the Polynesians as children of Lehi

(try also
"descendants of lehi"
"sons of lehi"
)

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tip from exmormon.org user Boilermaker
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Who and Where Are the Lamanites?

Certainly they [Lamanites] have mixed with many other lineages at the far reaches of their dispersal in the Americas and most of the islands of the Pacific since the time when Moroni bade them farewell in A.D. 421.

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tip from exmormon.org user jesus smith
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of royal blood
by "prophet" spencer kimball

Not until the revelations of Joseph Smith, bringing forth the Book of Mormon, did any one know of these migrants. It was not known before, but now the question is fully answered. Now the Lamanites number about sixty million; they are in all of the states of America from Tierra del Fuego all the way up to Point Barrows, and they are in nearly all the islands of the sea from Hawaii south to southern New Zealand.
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The descendants of this mighty people were called Indians by Columbus in 1492 when he found them here.

The term Lamanite includes all Indians and Indian mixtures, such as the Polynesians, the Guatemalans, the Peruvians, as well as the Sioux, the Apache, the Mohawk, the Navajo, and others. It is a large group of great people.
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Today we have many Lamanite leaders in the Church. For example, in Tonga, where 20 percent of all the people in the islands belong to the Church, we have three large stakes. Two of them are presided over wholly by Lamanites and the other almost wholly by them. There are three stakes in Samoa and another is to be organized in those small Samoan islands. Four more stakes with Lamanite leaders!

There are three stakes of Zion in Mexico City with Mexican leaders—Lamanite leaders. The stake presidencies, the bishops, the high council, the auxiliary leaders—everybody, with one or two exceptions—are Lamanites. In Monterrey, Mexico, in Guatemala, in Lima, in New Zealand, and elsewhere we have stakes of Zion with all their appropriate leaders.

That is in direct fulfillment of the prophecies that were made, and it is a great change.
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One of the first things that Joseph Smith did when he was organizing the Church was to preach the gospel to the Lamanites himself, and then he sent his brethren
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In 1963, 23 percent of all the baptisms in the Church were Lamanite baptisms. There were twenty-five thousand in one year. In 1970 there were even more. All this indicates the responsiveness of the Lamanites to the truth.
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We have probably thirty thousand Lamanite members in Central America, and I remind you this is the result of only a relatively few years. There must be about one hundred thousand Polynesians in the Church, so that we have now approximately a quarter million Lamanites. I suppose a rough guess would give us only a few thousand twenty years ago. Now we have a quarter million in this short period of two or three decades. We have been doing missionary work with some of the Polynesians for a hundred years and more.

It is pleasing to know that we have hundreds of Lamanite missionaries who are out for two years just like all the non-Lamanites
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It might be interesting to know that of nearly one hundred missions, the four highest of all are Lamanite missions. That is, the Mexico North Mission, the Guatemala-El Salvador Mission, the Mexico Mission, and the Tonga Mission. These are the four highest in the world.
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Of all missions, nine of the first twenty-one are Lamanite missions.

wentworth letter, written by joseph smith, claiming native american indians are lamanites

the wentworth letter (1842):

In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the Tower of Babel at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.

see also the other posts about lds claims that native americans descend from israel/jews

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the true church wouldnt have made these mistakes

here's a nice quote on the ExmormonFoundation youtube site:

There never would have been a Hoffman scandal because they would have turned Hoffman away because the letters he wanted to sell them were not the truth. There never would have been a Mountain Meadows Massacre, or if there had been, it truly would have been renegade Mormons and Brigham Young would have done everything in his power to see that the men responsible would have been brought to trial and a full measure of compensation would have been sought for the families and loved ones of the victims who remained. The true church simply would have done everything to make things right.

blessings, trials/punishments, or coincidence: god, god and no such thing?

the lds church doesnt like to leave anything to chance. you'll never hear a general authority stand at the pulpit in general conference and say: "hey, shit happens."
when something good happens: it was inspired or it is a blessing for something good you've done.
when something bad happens: it is either a test by God or a punishment.

was it inspiration when apostles called missionaries to places where they were killed, dismembered, maimed or tortured while on their missions?

was it inspired that a female student was accepted to god's university, byu, so she could get raped by a byu football player?

i sat in on a lesson 2 weeks ago at my local lds church congregation. it was about trials. one of the key teachings on this subject was something to the effect of:
we will not be given trials greater than we can bear

some questions came to my mind:
* do trials come from god? (several people during the lesson were saying "god gives us trails because/to...")
* does this apply to lds church members only?
* is psychological trauma/damage just an illusion?
* does god allow rape of children because he knows that they can bear it?
* how does the mother who is brutally murdered by her abusive husband bear her trial? (rhetorical question)
* do you as a parent give your children the same kind of trials others claim god gives his children, in order to test their obedience or to build their character? (hopefully everybody agrees that is a rhetorical question)

Learning through life's trials (march 2010!)

Apostle Orson F. Whitney (1855–1931) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, explained: “No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude and humility. All that we suffer and all that we endure, especially when we endure it patiently, builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God … and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education that we come here to acquire.”

rhetoric like this makes me cringe. let's put these words into some real-life context shall we?
case: a small girl is raped by her father. we'll call her Mary. let's say Mary is 9 or 10 years old, or maybe she's 4 or 14, does it really matter?

let's use those same words and apply them to this situation:

"No pain that Mary suffered during her rape, no trial that she experienced, even rape, is wasted. It ministers to her education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude and humility. All that Mary suffers and all that she must now endure, especially when she endures it patiently, builds up her character, purifies her heart, expands her soul, and makes her more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God … and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that she gains the education that she came here to acquire."