"for god will not be...mocked?"

it's interesting to note how the mormon endowment threatens its members with serious/dangerous consequences for people who reveal its contents, "for god will not be mocked", but ive never heard of any evidence to support the notion that the mormon god is consistently and reliably "not letting himself be mocked".


"i'm ron...burgundy?"

my comments on "Remarks by Bishop Keith B. McMullin to Evergreen International"

here are my comments on this speech given by the second counselor in the presiding bishopric in the mormon church, to evergreen international:
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/remarks-by-bishop-keith-b.-mcmullin-to-evergreen-international

First, far less is known about the causes of same-gender attraction than is claimed to be known. Preliminary findings are touted as proven facts while retractions or contradicting evidence about the same issue receive little, if any, attention. The result is an abundance of untruth and distortions worthy of Isaiah’s warning:

“Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! . . . [Who] justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! . . . They have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel”(Isaiah 5:20–21, 23, 24; see also 2 Nephi 15:18–24).

homosexuality/same-gender attraction is compared to evil and darkness.
yet the church admits that little is known about the causes of same-gender attraction.

what specifically is "untruth" in this case? please provide some examples. since little is known, how has the church been able to establish the untruth?

Second, the personal well-being of those struggling with same-gender attraction often declines with each so-called public victory for same-sex attraction. Increased public acceptance of same-sex behavior inevitably leads to a diminution of personal, righteous behavior. When sophistry prevails, the strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life is obscured. Hence the Savior’s warning: “Enter ye in at the strait gate; . . .Beware of false prophets, [who] come to you insheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves” (Matthew 7:13, 15; see also 3 Nephi 14:13, 15).

it seems again that the church is claiming to know more than the little that is known.
here homosexuals claiming they are good, normal, nice people are really "ravening wolves", out to mortally destroy "the sheep".

For example, the cultural adaptations to same-gender marriage will, in time, make the prospect of eternal marriage and family more difficult to attain.

as in heterosexuals will find it harder to choose to marry heterosexually in a mormon temple because the option of gay marriage is available? is this also an endorsement of homosexuals marrying heterosexually?

Wide acceptance of same-sex attraction will inevitably foster greater deviance from God’s laws.

wide acceptance of same-sex attraction will inevitably foster greater understanding and love between parents and children and relatives and reduce youth suicides.

“My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts” (Isaiah 55:8–9; see also verses 10–11).

nice display of arrogance.

duly appointed and authorized leaders in the Lord’s Church are called upon to counsel and assist those struggling with same-gender attraction. Unlike the world, what these local priesthood leaders do can have an everlasting effect for good on the precious souls seeking their help.

is the church claiming that their lay clergy can cure same-sex attraction? that they are more qualified to deal with complex psychological, emotional and biological issues than licensed healthcare professionals? it seems as if they are:

The study of the doctrines of the gospel will improve behavior quicker than a study of behavior will improve behavior. (Boyd Packer)

does the church claim that businessman/"prophet" thomas monson understands human behavior better than e.g. phil zimbardo?

The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles have reaffirmed that “all human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God

what about people "he created" with both sex organs--a penis and a vagina? or people without sex organs? or conjoined twins? or psychopaths? or mentally retarded? doesn't it seem logically possible that "god" "created" people as homosexuals too? or bisexuals? or asexuals?

mormon general conference talks mentioning "homosexuals", "homosexuality" or "homosexual"

i will compile this list based on results from this search engine:
http://corpus.byu.edu/gc/

(this is currently ongoing/unfinished)

HOMOSEXUALS

1. "No True Worship without Chastity", Elder Mark E. Petersen, Of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, Conference Report, April 1965, pp. 34-37, http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1391

There are moves in at least two states in America to ease up on laws regulating immoral behavior. Legislators are being asked to rule that adultery should no longer be considered a crime, that homosexuals and other deviates should be allowed to practice their depravities legally and without restriction, 

Petersen, later on in his talk, then issues this frightening quote:

And Paul still says of those who deviate from the path of virtue into some of the great perversions, ". . . they which commit such things are worthy of death" (Rom. 1:26-32).

and the equally absurd:

By modern revelation he tells us that sex sin is next to murder in the divine category of crime (see Alma 39:5).

2. "Wanted: Parents With Courage", Bishop Victor L. Brown, Second Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric, Conference Report, April 1970, pp. 31-33, http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1751

The chief psychotherapist at one of Washington's largest hospitals says, "A normal 12- or 13-year-old boy or girl exposed to pornographic literature could develop into a homosexual. You can take healthy boys or girls and by exposing them to abnormalities virtually crystallize and settle their habits for the rest of their lives."
Some are even saying, "What is wrong with becoming a homosexual?" In one church, a leader recently performed a marriage between two male homosexuals. As a matter of fact, some of the world news media made quite a story of it. And yet who is responsible for this moral decay? The children? Hardly. It is we adults, those of us who permit the sale of filth on our newsstands and also permit the broadcasting of it over airways.

i.e. homosexuals are unhealthy, abnormal. parents are responsible for their children's homosexuality. in one sense they are--genetically.


3. "The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory", Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 1980, http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=3374

we see evil and crime and carnality covering the earth. Liars and thieves and adulterers and homosexuals and murderers scarcely seek to hide their abominations from our view. Iniquity abounds. There is no peace on earth.

i have personally never seen homosexuals having sex, in person. where has mr. mcconkie been hanging out? i fail to see how homosexuals having sex in private "disturbs the peace".


4. "The Lord God of the Restoration", Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 1980, http://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=3444

Crime, immorality, abortions, and homosexual abominations are fast becoming the norm of life among the wicked and ungodly.

i.e. homosexuals are an abomination, wicked and ungodly. i wonder why there are so many homosexual-mormon suicides? (see also the lds church, homosexuality and suicide: how do we prevent it? :

Utah leads the nation in suicides for men from 18-24 years old, and that an estimated 1/3 of those suicides are tied to homosexuality.

)

shortly after in his talk, mcconkie ironically makes the following claim:

The gospel is the message of peace and salvation for all men

apparently it isn't.


HOMOSEXUALITY

HOMOSEXUAL

examples of terror management theory usage in mormonism

this will be an ongoing post about the use of terror management theory in mormonism.

Terror Management Theory (TMT), in social psychology, states that human behavior is mostly motivated by the fear of mortality.

this is about motivating people and reinforcing doctrines by using fear of death (also punishment, pain, etc)

* "apostle" dallin oaks, "The Gospel Culture", Ensign, March 2012

Like the refugees on The African Queen, we are fleeing evil and disaster. There are obstacles all around us

* "The Coming Tests and Trials and Glory", Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 1980

We see evil forces everywhere uniting to destroy the family, to ridicule morality and decency, to glorify all that is lewd and base. We see wars and plagues and pestilence. Nations rise and fall. Blood and carnage and death are everywhere. Gadianton robbers fill the judgment seats in many nations. An evil power seeks to overthrow the freedom of all nations and countries. Satan reigns in the hearts of men; it is the great day of his power. ...The way ahead is dark and dreary and dreadful. There will yet be martyrs; the doors in Carthage shall again enclose the innocent. We have not been promised that the trials and evils of the world will entirely pass us by.

* "The Lord God of the Restoration", Elder Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, 1980

Men in our time will never find peace, or safety, or salvation in the world. Wars and plagues and desolation shall continue to sweep the earth as with a flood. 

evidence that joseph smith knew about engraved plates during his time--apologists panic =)

Mike Reed Drops Bomb on Metal Plates

mormon missionaries will tell people that you only have to pay 10%

which, by itself, is a shock for most people, but what they DONT tell you is that once you get to the temple you have to agree to the law of consecration which requires you to give 100%, that you have to:

"covenant and promise before God, angels , and these witnesses at this alter, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in the Doctrine and Covenant, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and ***everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you***, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion."

"mormons only pay 10% (tithing) of their income" is a whopping lie =) the figure is missing a zero--100% (if the church requires it of you)

mormon apologetics - pseudo-science + ad hoc assumptions

by Holy the Ghost

An ad hoc assumption or adhoc hypothesis is a way of explaining away your wrongness.
After you discover that you are mistaken, you make an assumption that, if true, allows you to conclude that you were not really mistaken
If I run an experiment in which I predict some psychic phenomena, but the results contradict my hypothesis, I can argue that my psychic phenomena still exists, but the problem is that there were skeptics who were observing the experiment, and they sent off bad psi vibes (or some such thing).

We believe that Joseph Smith is a mouthpiece for God.
Observation: He was wrong about men on the moon.
Ad hoc assumption: he was speaking as a man.

We believe Joseph Smith was a translator:
Observation: Book of Abraham
Ad hoc assumption: he didn't literally translate it, it was simply a tool of inspiration

We believe we will be blessed for paying tithing.
Observation: You are a bankrupt
Ad hoc assumption: God is testing you

We believe we can be healed by blessings
Observation: non healing
Ad hoc assumption: the recipient lacks faith

We believe that the church takes tithing & offerings for purposes of charity
Observation: There is little evidence that this is true
Ad hoc assumption: the church doesn't want to brag about it's charitableness

We believe that black people are cursed, and were less valiant in the pre-existence
Observation: 1978 revelation
Ad hoc assumption: that was simply a policy, never a doctrine

by Fetal Deity

Apologists are pseudo-scientists. That is, they do their "science" in reverse. They start with a conclusion. In the case of Mopologists, that means, for instance, that they have concluded ("spiritually") that the BoM is the word of God. Then, they look for evidence that supports their conclusion; any evidence that contradicts their previously arrived-at conclusion is either ignored, distorted or completely redefined.

Bottom line: it is impossible to engage in a rational, objective argument with an apologist in the area he or she is defending ... IMPOSSIBLE ... as in: DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME!!!

why the mormons always list a new leader's accomplishments before he speaks for the first time

while growing up in the lds cult i was always bothered by the bragging about the new leader or "important" guest speaker being presented to the congregation, how the person introducing him would always read through a long list of accomplishments/bragging points about all the education and positions he's held, etc. i always knew of somebody in my ward who was most likely way more humble and "spiritually qualified" to help and teach others, but who hadnt accomplished a lot in the worldly sense when compared to this businessman in a nice suit. it bothered me that the church leaders put such an emphasis on worldly achievements of their leaders.

i remember saying to myself every single time this happened: "why do they do this? what does this have to do with anything about the gospel?"

today i was reading The Essential Guide to Rhetoric
and found the answer to my lifelong question =)

page 38

ETHOS
Argument is not the only dimension of persuasive proof. You might sometimes hear what sound like strong arguments, yet be inclined to doubt them. To accept someone’s argument is, in a sense, to trust that person, so audiences make judgments about the speaker. Audiences ask questions (such as “What kind of person is this?") to evaluate the speaker and decide if she is credible and whether to change their mind about the topic at hand. This is the same as asking, “What kind of ethos does this person have?” When audiences wonder about the speaker’s ethos, they are considering his credibility (believability) and trustworthiness.

By telling the people in church the "impressive" info about the new leader/guest speaker, they are establishing the credibility of that person, which increases the chances that the people will trust him and believe what he says. It's a simple, well-known, rhetoric tactic.

if what the speaker was going to say was really true, and the "holy ghost" really existed, then creating ethos to strengthen your message (argument) would just be a waste of time and effort.

how to write yourself out of the lds mormon church by email

My full name is X
My date of birth is X
My membership number is X.
My residence address is: X

I am a member in the X ward.

I hereby resign my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, effective immediately, and request you to remove my name permanently from your membership records. Please confirm that my name has been removed from your records. I expect to receive that confirmation within a reasonably short time.
-----
send this in an email to dodgegw@ldschurch.org
replace all X's if you know what they are. you might need to follow up with the bishop from the ward you attended last, calling him and sending him messages until he complies. my process took exactly 7 days from when i sent my email to when i received my resignation letter from my bishop saying i had been removed. tell you bishop you do not want to wait the standard 30 days (at the stake president level), but that you want your resignation to be processed immediately.

joseph smith boasting he is greater than jesus

history of the church, page 2432

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

thelema's the equinox volume 1 number 2 book review

this is my review of equinox 1.2

page 4

joseph smith is mentioned in a list of incompatible forms of faith =)

Faith has been proposed as a remedy. But we perceive many incompatible forms of Faith founded on Authority—The Vedas, The Quran, The Bible; Buddha, Christ, Joseph Smith

this appeals to me:

5. There is only one Rock which Scepticism cannot shake;
the Rock of Experience.
6. We have therefore endeavoured to eliminate from the
conditions of acquiring Spiritual Experience its dogmatic,
theological, accidental, climatic and other inessential elements.
7. We require the employment of a strictly scientific
method. The mind of the seeker must be unbiased: all
prejudice and other sources of error must be perceived as such
and extirpated.
8. We have therefore devised a Syncretic-Eclectic Method
combining the essentials of all methods, rejecting all their
trammels, to attack the Problem, through exact experiments
and not by guesses.

page 5

1. There is no hope in physical life, since death of the
individual, the race, and ultimately the planet, ends all.
2. There is no hope in reason, since it contradicts itself,
and is in any case no more than a reflection upon the facts of
physical life.
...
4. There is no hope in Faith, for there are many warring
Faiths, all equally positive.

2. We are Men of Science, ever eagerly acquiring
pertinent facts.
3. We are Sceptics, ever eagerly examining those facts.
4. We are Philosophers, ever eagerly classifying and coordinating those well-criticised facts.
5. We are Epicureans, ever eagerly enjoying the
unification of those facts.
6. We are Philanthropists, ever eagerly transmitting our
knowledge of those facts to others.
7. Further, we are Syncretists, taking truth from all
systems, ancient and modern; and Eclectics, ruthlessly
discarding the inessential factors in any one system, however
perfect.

page 6

3. Mysticism, being based on pure experience, is always a
vital force; but owing to the lack of trained observation, has
always been a mass of error. Spiritual Experience, interpreted
in the terms of Intellect, is distorted; just as sunrise shows the
grass green and the sea blue. Both were invisible until sunrise;
yet the diversity of colour is not in the sun, but in the objects
on which its light falls, and their contradiction does not prove
the sun to be an illusion.
4. We shall correct Mysticism (or Illuminism) by Science,
and explain Science by Illuminism.

1. We have one method, that of Science.

page 13

2. In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths;
of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and
many other things that may or may not exist.
It is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing
certain things, certain results will follow; students are
earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them.
3. The advantages to be gained from them are chiefly
these:
(a) A widening of the horizon of the mind.
(b) An improvement of the control of the mind.

lds mormon "holy ghost"/"spirit" testimony

from Lyndon Lamborn "Standing for Something More",

The holy spirit as a sole guide is very unreliable. Many examples
prove this point

1. Since the holy spirit truth test is universally used by all
religions, and most religions conclude that their way is the only true
way to find God, they cannot all be correct. Therefore, there are
hundreds of millions of false positives. The truth test formula is
therefore proven unreliable.
2. Many LDS have described the confirmation truth test feelings in
relation to stories that were ultimately found to be fabricated.
Examples include the faith-building stories told by Paul H. Dunn.
These stories were absolute treasures to many, and accompanied by the
warm feelings, tingly spine, and burning in the bosom for thousands.
Dunn later confessed that the stories were contrived . The truth test
formula is therefore proven unreliable, even among LDS members.
3. Many LDS describe the burning in the bosom, the tingly spine, etc.
as being indistinguishable from feelings when reading other inspiring
stories (especially patriotic) or quotes that have nothing to do with
religion or the plan of salvation. This is more evidence confirming
the unreliability of the truth test.
4. Finally, unfulfilled and false prophecies made by prophets when
‘under the influence of the Holy Ghost’ are another indicator of the
unreliable nature of the truth test. In 1835 Smith prophesied that the
second coming would take place by the year 1891 . April 5, 1843, at
the General Conference of the Church, while the Spirit rested upon
him, the Prophet Joseph said: “Were I going to prophecy, I would say
the end would not come in 1844, 5, or 6, or in forty years. There are
those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ
comes. ” Since all those in the rising generation are now dead, the
truth test failed Smith. The truth test is therefore also unreliable
for LDS prophets. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet
Joseph Smith page 286 )

here's a great quote by "apostle" dallin oaks:

"What does a “burning in the bosom” mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom."

"The holy spirit as a sole guide is very unreliable"
the "holy spirit" can actually be explained by biology/psychology =)

read about "A Short Experiment – Comparing Descriptions of Spiritual Feelings from Different Religions"

then read about the church's registered trademark called HeartSell

bonneville was established and is owned and run by deseret management--the church's for-profit "arm"

"i know gravity is true"

from eric davis' facebook status:

No one ever stands in front of a group and says "I know gravity is true." Why is that? It's because evidence makes gravity an accepted reality. Be wary of any idea in which people feel the need to repeatedly declare how "true" it is. Chances are that such ideas have no factual support, and those people are either (A) deluded, or (B) still trying to convince themselves despite lack of factual support.

this reminds me of the boyd packer quote about self-brainwashing:

"A testimony is found in the bearing of it."

and its implication: "If you don't believe something that we teach, or if you have doubts, BEAR FALSE WITNESS about it, and KEEP LYING until you've convinced yourself that your testimony is true."

the rest of the story FAIR deliberately left out about joseph smith's moon men beliefs

oliver b. huntington's testimony about joseph smith's teachings about men on the moon:

As far back as 1837, I know that he [Joseph Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do -- that they live generally to near the age of a 1,000 years.
He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style

FAIR'S main response (in addition to the "speaking as a man" copout):

However, it should be remembered that this concept was considered 'scientific fact' by many at the time.

but FAIR intentionally leaves out a rather key part of that testimony:

"Astronomers and philosophers have, from time almost immemorial until very recently, asserted that the moon was uninhabited, that it had no atmosphere, etc. But recent discoveries, through the means of powerful telescopes, have given scientists a doubt or two upon the old theory.
Nearly all the great discoveries of man in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet."

FAIR is just doing what dallin oaks describes as the mission of official church literature--misrepresentation (lying):

Balance is telling both sides. This is not the mission of the official Church literature

see also Early Mormon Leaders on the Inhabitants of the Sun and Moon

i know the church is true "Because feelings are unmistakeable" / "i cant deny the spiritual experiences i've had"

in a recent facebook discussion an lds tbm friend said to me that he knows the church is true and what he has experienced is true "Because feelings are unmistakeable". there are a lot of ways to say this, but the response is:

i hope you're not serious...
people all over the world in many different religions "feel the spirit" of what they believe is true, mormons dont have a monopoly on these feelings:
A Short Experiment – Comparing Descriptions of Spiritual Feelings from Different Religions

read also about the lds church's registered trademark "HeartSell":

"Our unique strength is the ability to touch the hearts and minds of our audiences, evoking first feeling, then thought and, finally, action. We call this uniquely powerful brand of creative "HeartSell"® - strategic emotional advertising that stimulates response."

if you can read those 2 pages and not be convinced that you are being duped, that your emotions and mind are being manipulated, then you are in serious trouble. HeartSell is the mormon church's MO *in black and white* and it's even *for sale*! wake up people!

exmormon review: "New Harmony: Spirit will help young adults who wander"

my review of jerry earl johnston's (aka "locke" from "Lost") article New Harmony: Spirit will help young adults who wander

"When people go AWOL from the church"

AWOL == absence without leave. interesting choice of words. as if people need permission to leave =) "my experience" is that many people do feel the church is controlling their lives.

"we think it may be a social problem, or an intellectual problem"

typical mormon pride. are we to interpret this as "people who leave are intellectually deficient"? my reason for leaving was a combination of the control factor and intellectual aspects of contradictory church teachings and church teachings compared with reality and science. my bishop was trying to tell me and my wife what we could and couldnt do in the bedroom. most mormons will reply "he was wrong, the church has no official doctrine on that, etc", but the first presidency released a letter which contradicts this reply: "Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982".

Second, I had no use for people in authority. I saw them as people who wanted me to behave a certain way because somebody had made them behave that way. A classic child of the '60s, I trusted no one over 30.

this is a straw man argument. of course we need people in authority. what we *dont need* is people falsely claiming authority--telling people they will be burned if they dont pay money to the church, telling people they should feel guilty and ashamed because of their normal, healthy sexual desires, telling consenting adults how, when and who they can and cant have sex with, telling people they have to do this and that (a long list of things), otherwise they are not "worthy"/acceptable/good, etc.

"It usually takes an individual, not an institution."

this is yet another straw man argument--no mention of the *essential* converting "power" of the "holy ghost"? =) if jerry earl had grown up in the church, been praying and reading scriptures then the "holy ghost" would have had ample time to "tell him the truth of all things".

exmormon review: "Friday Minute: 10 member-missionary tips"

i only evaluated the first 5 points of Friday Minute: 10 member-missionary tips:

"Understanding how the public views us can improve our responses to gospel questions."

because the holy ghost which will tell you "the truth of all things" apparently isn't enough.

"I joined the church at 18 because a wonderful member-missionary understood that friendship is an extension of Christ’s way of life"

i.e. a well known principle of social psychology (for some reason he left out the part about the "holy ghost").

"Ditch the lingo"

i wholeheartedly agree.

"'men changed' instead of 'apostasy'"

just like "speaking as a man" or "only stating his opinion" or "that wasn't official church doctrine" instead of "wrong".

"Trust. When we earn our friends’ trust, they will trust our message"

provide full historical financial disclosure. only then i think you can begin to talk about trust.

"When the trainer retrieved his dog, I recognized him as an investigator... God loved him enough to send that dog to our garage so that we might bear a second witness"

this is called a post hoc fallacy. "A" happened, then "B", therefore "A" caused "B".

"God loved him enough"

stating *belief* as fact.

what is official lds mormon church doctrine?

i call it the "official doctrine" dilemma:

where does it say what official lds doctrine is?

"source X"

where does it say that "source X" is official doctrine?

"source Y"

where does it say that "source Y" is official doctrine?

"source Z"

ad infinitum or "it doesnt".

most people, when asked this question cite this source:
http://fairlds.org/FAIR_Brochures/What_is_Mormon_Doctrine.pdf

the problem is that michael ash isnt an official spokesman for the lds church so this article about what is official doctrine isnt official.

if someone suggests this link:
http://newsroom.lds.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

then my reply is:
is everything on newsroom.lds.org official doctrine? if so, where does it say that? who says this "authorless" article is official doctrine? is everything on lds.org official doctrine? if so, where does it say that?

is everything in the scriptures even official doctrine? what about polygamy? what about stoning your child if he doesnt obey you? see the dilemma?

IMPORTANT: when debating with an apologist, dont let the apologist set the rules of what is official doctrine or not. dont play by their rules. state something like: just so you know, i intend to take apostles and prophets of god at their word that what they say is official revelation from god when speaking in public or publicly publishing their teachings (independent of when the teachings were given--dead prophets and apostles count just as much as living), in addition to all "scriptures" in their original, "most perfect"/"directly revealed by god" versions--all changes to these sources will be disregarded. if the changes were purely spelling errors or dont change the meaning of the context then it wont matter anyways.

lds claim: "True wealth comes by living the gospel"

articles and statements like this are so ridiculous:

Hannah understood that worldly wealth and applause pales into insignificance when compared to the riches of eternity.

not if you're starving or need expensive medical care.

yes what the sick, poor and hungry children in the world definitely need is more metaphorical wealth =)

i suspect "true wealth" really has nothing to do with monetary wealth, otherwise why would the church have a "welfare" system then? =)

statements like this are so easy to say, especially from people who are not poor and starving.

elaine, from the exmormon yahoo group had a great comment:

> "Hannah understood that worldly wealth and applause pales into
> insignificance when compared to the riches of eternity."

Oh that must be why Mormons have totally forsaken materialism and MBAs and instead turned toward healing the sick and succoring those in need and restoring the earth toward its paradisaical glory. ;-)

Elaine

Ancient gold plates in Mesoamerica By Daniel Johnson, For Mormon Times

even the first sentence of the article is misleading:

"Archaeologists have know for about a century that gold plates with carved writing have been found in Mesoamerica, yet it is still not common knowledge outside their discipline."

engraving on gold plates has been common knowledge and practice in the occult for centuries at least. agrippa, the most influential writer of renaissance esoterica, wrote about it in the 16th century:

"this being engraven on a golden plate with the Sun being fortunate, renders him that wears it to be renowned, amiable, acceptable, potent in all his works, and equals a man to kings, and princes, elevating him to high fortunes, enabling to do whatsoever he pleaseth;"

(p. 319 Three Books of Occult Philosophy by Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa von Nettesheim)

this comment was DENIED by deseret news yet the church claims "The religion of the Latter-day Saints is not hostile to any truth, nor to scientific search for truth" (Elder Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations)

what a crock of shit!

UPDATE: i wrote to gregory (greg) kratz at gkratz@desnews.com and he told me to repost it and it was accepted =) they've got some real tightwad moderators over there.