Transformative Ordeals & Order of the Gnostic Star
2 months ago
Showing posts with label religion. Show all posts
Showing posts with label religion. Show all posts
Monday, 16 January 2012
Friday, 19 August 2011
a good definition of "religion"
from the wikipedia religion page:
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs from private belief in that it has a public aspect. Most religions have organized behaviors, including clerical hierarchies, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, congregations of laity, regular meetings or services for the purposes of veneration of a deity or for prayer, holy places (either natural or architectural), and/or scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include sermons, commemoration of the activities of a god or gods, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, music, art, dance, public service, or other aspects of human culture.
Monday, 15 August 2011
rational thinking vs religion
http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2324005980922&id=1272787049
main post by ED:
Is god all powerful, in that he can do anything he wanted to? If so, then he can create a plan where all his children could return to live with him WITHOUT having to murder one of his children to make it possible. Christianity FAIL. Reason wins.
Nick Humphrey: and what kind of "loving father" lets his kids rape and murder each other? i dont know of any. i usually step in and stop my kids' from fighting when it gets violent. i am really forgiving too and certainly wouldnt ban them from ever being in my presence again if they were to deny the existence of an invisible spirit. =)
TB: So E, let's say "Christianity fails, reason wins". Now what?
Nick Humphrey: TB "Now what?"
* tell your friends =)
* lobby for teaching of rational thinking, skepticism and logic starting in the public elementary education level
* study to build your own repertoire of rational arguments to use in debate with theists
?
TB: What makes you think that reason alone, or empirically justifiable beliefs alone, can ever serve as a substitute for religion, Nick? Haven't you met any of your fellow humans? They don't operate that way. Your war is a war against humanity itself, because humanity is innately religious.
Besides, there is no historical basis for assuming that cold, hard reason cannot itself be made into an idol and worshipped, with its worshippers acting as wickedly as any religious believers. The French Revolution is only one example.
The bloodletting there was orgiastic, and was done entirely in the name of reason and atheism.
If I could have told my friends in France 220 years ago anything, it would have been to continue on as believing Catholics, because they were much better as believing Catholics than as atheists.
Nick Humphrey: TB "What makes you think that reason alone, or empirically justifiable beliefs alone, can ever serve as a substitute for religion, Nick?"
you incorrectly assume at least 2 things:
1) that humanity needs to replace religion with something, instead of just doing away with it.
maybe *you* personally need to "establish contact with a perceived higher power". i dont.
2) that religionists are completely DEVOID of rationality.
they at least put it aside when it concerns their views of the existence of supernatural entities and interpretation of sensory perceptions and coincidences.
your argument is a straw man.
"They don't operate that way. Your war is a war against humanity itself, because humanity is innately religious."
this is known as the "naturalistic fallacy", but what IS does not imply what OUGHT to be. if homo sapiens are inclined towards religion, it doesnt mean we *should* be religious.
"there is no historical basis for assuming that cold, hard reason cannot itself be made into an idol and worshipped with its worshippers acting as wickedly as any religious believers."
this behavior IS *religious* just without an extra-terrestrial deity. assuming that rational thinking alone leads to such behavior is simply fallacious.
main post by ED:
Is god all powerful, in that he can do anything he wanted to? If so, then he can create a plan where all his children could return to live with him WITHOUT having to murder one of his children to make it possible. Christianity FAIL. Reason wins.
Nick Humphrey: and what kind of "loving father" lets his kids rape and murder each other? i dont know of any. i usually step in and stop my kids' from fighting when it gets violent. i am really forgiving too and certainly wouldnt ban them from ever being in my presence again if they were to deny the existence of an invisible spirit. =)
TB: So E, let's say "Christianity fails, reason wins". Now what?
Nick Humphrey: TB "Now what?"
* tell your friends =)
* lobby for teaching of rational thinking, skepticism and logic starting in the public elementary education level
* study to build your own repertoire of rational arguments to use in debate with theists
?
TB: What makes you think that reason alone, or empirically justifiable beliefs alone, can ever serve as a substitute for religion, Nick? Haven't you met any of your fellow humans? They don't operate that way. Your war is a war against humanity itself, because humanity is innately religious.
Besides, there is no historical basis for assuming that cold, hard reason cannot itself be made into an idol and worshipped, with its worshippers acting as wickedly as any religious believers. The French Revolution is only one example.
The bloodletting there was orgiastic, and was done entirely in the name of reason and atheism.
If I could have told my friends in France 220 years ago anything, it would have been to continue on as believing Catholics, because they were much better as believing Catholics than as atheists.
Nick Humphrey: TB "What makes you think that reason alone, or empirically justifiable beliefs alone, can ever serve as a substitute for religion, Nick?"
you incorrectly assume at least 2 things:
1) that humanity needs to replace religion with something, instead of just doing away with it.
maybe *you* personally need to "establish contact with a perceived higher power". i dont.
2) that religionists are completely DEVOID of rationality.
they at least put it aside when it concerns their views of the existence of supernatural entities and interpretation of sensory perceptions and coincidences.
your argument is a straw man.
"They don't operate that way. Your war is a war against humanity itself, because humanity is innately religious."
this is known as the "naturalistic fallacy", but what IS does not imply what OUGHT to be. if homo sapiens are inclined towards religion, it doesnt mean we *should* be religious.
"there is no historical basis for assuming that cold, hard reason cannot itself be made into an idol and worshipped with its worshippers acting as wickedly as any religious believers."
this behavior IS *religious* just without an extra-terrestrial deity. assuming that rational thinking alone leads to such behavior is simply fallacious.
Thursday, 28 April 2011
"there is no one single way to disprove a church/religion"
here's my response to the claim that it is impossible to disprove a religion. the key is disproving direct or indirect scientific claims.
Your comment is misleading. There is no single piece of logic that will ever prove/disprove a church. It is just one piece of the puzzle
judastefarianist 1 year ago
@judastefarianist actually the evidence that homo sapiens began approximately 200,000 years ago and not 5800-6000 years ago is a great single way to discredit judaism, christianity, islam and any other old-testament-based/abrahamic religion.
nickleus1977 1 sec ago
Tuesday, 26 April 2011
what percent of religious belief is based on the old testament, globally?
what percentage of world religions are abrahamic (based on the old testament)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups#Largest_religions_or_belief_systems_by_number_of_adherents
low: 38%
2200+1650+187.9+0.7=4038.6
2200+1650+187.9+0.7+1000+1500+3000+1000+65+29+12+3+3+2+1+1+0.8+0.63=10656.03
4038.6/10656.03=0.378996681
high: 61%
2,000+1,570+828+400+600+400+27+24+14+8+7.6+1+3+2+1+1+0.8+0.7+0.63=5888.73
2,000+1,570+14+7.6+0.7=5888.73=3592.3
3592.3/5888.73=0.610029667
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups#Largest_religions_or_belief_systems_by_number_of_adherents
low: 38%
2200+1650+187.9+0.7=4038.6
2200+1650+187.9+0.7+1000+1500+3000+1000+65+29+12+3+3+2+1+1+0.8+0.63=10656.03
4038.6/10656.03=0.378996681
high: 61%
2,000+1,570+828+400+600+400+27+24+14+8+7.6+1+3+2+1+1+0.8+0.7+0.63=5888.73
2,000+1,570+14+7.6+0.7=5888.73=3592.3
3592.3/5888.73=0.610029667
Tuesday, 1 February 2011
theists reaction to a friend saying he wrote himself out of the mormon church
here's the facebook conversation so far:
"Atheist A"
Da er det gjort:))
January 25 at 9:15pm · · Comment · Share
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You, "Theist LW" and "Person B" like this.
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"Person C" Flott;)
January 25 at 9:16pm ·
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"Person D" what?? :)
January 25 at 9:25pm ·
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"Person E" Hva har du gjort nå....?
January 25 at 9:25pm ·
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"Theist LW" I det stadiet du har vært den siste tiden, så er nok dette for tiden kanskje det beste for deg. Men på lang sikt så er jeg lei meg for denne avgjørelsen din. Evigheten er myyyye lengre enn den lille tiden vi flyr rundt her på jorda å virrer rundt som bortkommne insekt.
Sunday at 8:28pm ·
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"Atheist A" Hva har du fått i deg "Theist LW" ??;))
Sunday at 8:37pm ·
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"Theist LW" Litt cola bare ; ) he he he
Sunday at 10:14pm ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey da er det gjort her også =)
Sunday at 10:27pm ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey "Theist LW", you are stating a belief as a fact: that the soul exists eternally. there is no scientific and testable proof of anything other than the fact that we are primates.
Sunday at 10:30pm ·
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"Person E" Fortiden og fremtiden er bare en illusjon, det eneste vi vet helt sikkert er at vi lever her og nå!
Sunday at 10:34pm · · 1 personLoading...
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"Theist LW"
I am not one who needs scientific proofs. I Get my answers, I have found peace, and Need no DNA proof, that is written on a piece of paper. Verry scientific by the way.....
And i already knew that you wrote yourself out. I guess I can refe...r to a great Metallica song, "sad but true" ; ) Wich also leads me to another great song by Whitney Houston " I will always love you" : DSee More
Sunday at 10:45pm ·
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"Person D" geez!!!!
Sunday at 11:08pm ·
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"Theist LW" Jeg er veldig nysgjerrig på hvordan du får fortiden til å bli en illusjon. Sier du da at jeg egentlig ikke var på Kongsberg skisenter på lørdag ???? Og at jeg ikke hadde taco til middag igår ???? Veldig interresant tanke......
Yesterday at 8:37am ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey
"Theist LW", listen to yourself. these are the classic words of what is called "a science denier". dont you want scientific proof that a medicine works and doesnt have dangerous side effects before you take it? dont you want scientific proof that... a new airplane model has been thoroughly tested before you get on it for a transatlantic flight? if you were accused of rape, wouldnt you demand scientific (dna) evidence and rely on that evidence to get you acquitted? did religion make your video camera or your computer? no, it was made using the scientific process. did religion make your car or your clothes or the birth control you use? religion only takes people's money, tells them to be nice while at the same time telling them to hate certain people and gives people false hope. homo sapiens have existed for at least 100,000 years. the bible claims the first offspring (cain) was born around 6000-7000 years ago.
"Theist LW", can i suggest a video for you?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQorzOS-F6wSee More
23 hours ago ·
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"Person D" Nicholas: Signerer innlegget ditt!!! ;)
23 hours ago · · 1 personLoading...
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"Theist LW"
NO NICK, you listen to yourself. Three years ago you where preaching this stuff that you are now in total denial of, 15 years ago you knocked down thousands of doors in Norway for two years and spent either your or the Church`s money to sha...re the Gosspel. I gotta say, you`ve come a looooong way since that. Until last year, And unfortunatly I feel it`s the wrong way since then. Money will always be a temporary state of luck, and the past year or so, that`s been your quest, to see how "gold diggin" the lds church is. And how much money you`ve "lost".
I could share tons of links to proove you wrong, but you can search em up, just like you search for everything else ; ) www.google.com
True happyness, comes without the dough $$$$
And I know this, since I`ve experienced both sides of good and bad economics. True happyness is something you gotta earn spritualy. Not with your wallet.See More
23 hours ago ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey
exactly "Theist LW". i was raised in a cult that told me NOT to think outside the box, i.e. church, who controlled what information i had about them by telling me NOT to read anything contrary to their teachings, who told me what to think and wha...t NOT to think, what to feel and what NOT to feel. i was brainwashed by a cult.
> you`ve come a looooong way since that
no shit =) thank science and reasoning for that!
> True happyness, comes without the dough $$$$
and who do you think taught you that "Theist LW"? this is EXACTLY the kind of shit they WANT you to believe.
> True happyness is something you gotta earn spritualy. Not with your wallet.
true happiness starts with financial independence: the ability to do what you want, when you want and not be under the control of anyone else. true happiness ends with/is completed by doing what makes you most happy.
> Money will always be a temporary state of luck
have you heard of economics? fiscal responsibility? controlling spending? investing? education? do you think the church just "got lucky" with their money? no, they implemented a law requiring people to pay them 10% of the income in order to be saved. you can't NOT pay tithing and be "saved in the highest celestial kingdom".
listen to what hinckley says: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxClKTZj5Fg
(in any other context this would be considered a threat and extortion)
you still haven't responded to the science denying and i hope you watch that video i suggested.See More
22 hours ago ·
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"Person D" And what are members of the church doing on the internet anyway??
members of that church really needs a wake-up call!!!!!
22 hours ago ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey
sorry "Theist LW", but its easier for me to type on my keyboard than an sms so i'll post the argument you just send me on my phone. you wrote:
> "if anyone is in denial it would be you. reason number one: you keep calling me a denier"
i fail to see... your logic.
> "reason number two: if you never had a doubt about god or his existence, you would never choose to walk the path you are now on."
i dont have a doubt that god (YHWH, the god of the old testament) doesnt exist. i want my friends and family to realize this too and stop letting themselves be controlled by a corporation pretending to be a church. and what can i say? i was raised to tell others about my "beliefs". who can blame me? =)
> "which leads on to reason 3: your constant need to "prove" that you are right"
it's my need to destroy organizations who control and rob people of their freedom, joy and money. see also my response to "reason 2".
> "the fact that you wrote yourself out of the church was wise though. this means that there's still hope, after this life at the latest"
by baptizing me for the dead? =) i'll pass. i hereby deny god/elohim/yhwh, jesus and the holy ghost as false, monstrous idols. see, nothing really happens "Theist LW" =) all the church's threats are empty =) the godhead can suck my dick =) see? god's not striking me down =)
> "hugs and squeeze"
the same to you =)See More
22 hours ago ·
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"Theist LW"
So just live it up then, and leave the rest of us LDS in peace. You have no power over my beliefs, even with your links and "proofs". I just gotta wish you the best of Luck. ; )
Post one of my personal SMS messages out on FB again, and we'l...l just close our friendshipp with that.See More
22 hours ago ·
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"Theist LW" And where would we get that wake up call ???
22 hours ago ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey
> leave the rest of us LDS in peace.
if i'm not mistaken "Theist LW", you commented on bårds status on his own page. the fact is that LDS and other religions dont let the rest of US live in peace. they're out there proselyting and meddling with p...olitical affairs, e.g. Prop 8, lobbying for teaching of ID in schools, trying to stop non-believers from living the way THEY want to live, trying to take away THEIR joy. reread your 11th article of faith:
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
hugs and squeezes =)
> "Post one of my personal SMS messages out on FB again, and we'l...l just close our friendshipp with that."
goddamn your love runs deep =) sorry "Theist LW", wont happen again.See More
21 hours ago ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey i love you "Theist LW" despite our differences in opinion =)
21 hours ago ·
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"Theist CL"
Your arguments are horribly framed "Theist LW". As someone that is LDS I'm asking you to please give independent thought to what it is Nick and everyone is saying. Faith is not something that can be explained. There is no "proof" we can offer.... If people are better w/out their faith, let them be and be happy that they are "better". All of your post make you seem so threatened by what other people are doing with their lives. Let your faith in God give you comfort that his plan includes what Bard and Nick do with their lives and let it support you in your endeavors to better your own.See More
9 hours ago ·
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"Theist LW"
You are right "Theist CL", and I suck at anything that has to do with explaining, it is not ment as judgmental or anything, I am actually trying to tell them to leave us LDS in peace as well, but as long as I see a fist, I guess I suck at turnin...g the other cheek. But yeah I do it wrong, and it always ends up looking like a mess. But thanks for the heads up l ; )
Pluss I love these guys like they where my own brothers, so it gets complicated realy fast.See More
7 hours ago ·
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"Theist CL"
I agree about the brothers thing but your ARE making judgments left and right (both sides are btw). I just don't know what you mean about being "left alone". Athiest have an agenda just as valid as any religion does. If they feel they're... making the world better by helping people think a different way then great. No different than what we did for two years in Norge...right? Like me I assume you still support the LDS missionary program because you believe in what it has to offer. You can't be "left in peace" unless you tell your sons and daughters to let people be "left in peace" regarding the LDS missionaries. Do you watch the stuff Nick posts? It's actually quite interesting. Food for thought and such.See More
7 hours ago ·
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"Person TKP"
It's great to see that there finally has come some sense to this discussion.
A religion (or the lack of it) should tolerate critisicm, so a discussion is sometimes good. I just felt that this one wasn't a constructive one, so I didn't want t...o participate.
We should all respect each others standpoints, either way.
Scientific evidence does exist, but is man-made and hence a good, but artificial one. Absolute evidence cannot be communicated because all our information comes through our senses, meaning they are all illusions one way or another. And even if The Holy Spirit did exist and did speak to us, without our normal senses, we wouldn't be able to prove it. So it all boils down to beliefs.
I think Bård is brave to make his standpoint clear, the same way he was brave to make his standpoint when he attended the church earlier.See More
7 hours ago · · 1 personLoading...
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"Theist LW"
"Person TKP" I am glad you joined this little debate here, cause what you say, is pretty much what I think, but like I said earlier, I suck at getting this right. And having a strong belief in one thing and seeing great friends such as Nick and Bå...rd, take a stand like this is a great mixture of feelings. But it all comes down to Respect. And I do respect the choice they made. I will work at the Judgmental part, and show some love : )
Peace out for now ; )See More
6 hours ago ·
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"Person TKP" Peace :)
6 hours ago ·
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Nicholas Christian Humphrey
@"Person TKP"
> It's great to see that there finally has come some sense to this discussion.
please point out the things that i wrote that DONT make sense.
...
> We should all respect each others standpoints, either way.
religion deserves NO respect. it is dangerous and counterproductive to progress, understanding of the universe and all that humanism stands for; teaching people:
* that it is a good thing to believe in things they cant see or prove (funny how believers dont apply this principle to any OTHER part of their life like buying a house, car, stocks, legal matters, flying airplanes, taking medicine or medical procedures. for all those things they want evidence that their decision is correct and safe and guaranteed. but if a guy comes and says give me your money and let me dictate exactly how you should live your life and in return i'll give you eternal life, then suddenly they DONT NEED evidence!)
* to hate, kill, and judge others who dont share the same beliefs and lifestyles. e.g. issues like homosexuals and marriage, suicide bombers killing infidels, killing abortion doctors, hating jews
* to accept non-answers about our existence like "if it can't be explained, god must have done it" and "his ways are higher than our ways, we can never possibly understand why". we would still be living in the stone age with no computers, no medicine, no machines, no advanced technology whatsoever if everyone still thought like that.
> Scientific evidence does exist, but is man-made and hence a good, but artificial one. Absolute evidence cannot be communicated because all our information comes through our senses, meaning they are all illusions one way or another.
"Person TKP", is it an illusion that you are a man? that you have a penis? is it an illusion that somebody raping your sister is a bad thing? is it an illusion that the world trade center was destroyed along with thousands of lives? is it an illusion that surgeons can give women artificially larger breasts? is it an illusion that you can open a web browser and talk with someone on the other side of the planet in real time?
scientific claims CAN be tested and PROVED with a high level of accuracy by several independent parties. this is HOW we have the technology that we do: medicine, computers, skyscrapers, telecommunications, etc! some religions make scientific claims and can be disproved using the scientific method, religions like christianity, islam, judaism, all based on the old testament which claims that homo sapiens began 6-7000 years ago and that there was a global flood that wiped out every living thing except some people on a boat about 4-5000 years ago.
the old testament also teaches such irrational, inhumane and destructive and, in religious terms, "evil" things like that homosexuals are evil, that genocide, stoning children and raping women is justifiable.
steve hassan and the mind control BITE model
What is "mind control?" Is all "mind control" bad?
JESUS this looks familiar! =)
My mind control model outlines many key elements that need to be controlled: Behavior, Information, Thoughts and Emotions (BITE). If these four components can be controlled, then an individual's identity can be systematically manipulated and changed.
...The person is systematically deceived about the beliefs and practices of the person (or group) and manipulated throughout the recruitment process...The person's identity is profoundly influenced through a set of social influence techniques and a "new identity" is created- programmed to be dependent on the leader or group ideology...The cult system reinforces an "illusion of control."
JESUS this looks familiar! =)
Monday, 31 January 2011
doing good without religion
atheist: X is bad about the church.
believer: but what about all the GOOD that the CHURCH does?
atheist: its PEOPLE who do good, and they can do the same good WITHOUT the church.
believer: but they do good BECAUSE of the church.
atheist: if they do good ONLY because of their church, then they are terrible human beings, worse than the "godless", "evil" non-believers they despise. there are plenty of atheists, non-theists, and agnostics who do good WITHOUT the need for a god or WITHOUT the need to be told to do good.
believer: but what about all the GOOD that the CHURCH does?
atheist: its PEOPLE who do good, and they can do the same good WITHOUT the church.
believer: but they do good BECAUSE of the church.
atheist: if they do good ONLY because of their church, then they are terrible human beings, worse than the "godless", "evil" non-believers they despise. there are plenty of atheists, non-theists, and agnostics who do good WITHOUT the need for a god or WITHOUT the need to be told to do good.
Wednesday, 26 January 2011
respect abraham? No. Fuck you.
christopher hitchens in the hitchslaps compilation:
05:27 "my children, who are everthing to me, and who are my only chance of even getting a glimpse of a second life, let alone an immortal one, i'll tell you something, if i was told to sacrifice them to prove my devotion to god, if i was told to do what all monotheists are told to do, and admire the man [abraham] who said 'yes i'll gut my own kid to show my love of god', i'd say 'No. Fuck you.'"
05:27 "my children, who are everthing to me, and who are my only chance of even getting a glimpse of a second life, let alone an immortal one, i'll tell you something, if i was told to sacrifice them to prove my devotion to god, if i was told to do what all monotheists are told to do, and admire the man [abraham] who said 'yes i'll gut my own kid to show my love of god', i'd say 'No. Fuck you.'"
Friday, 29 October 2010
Monday, 30 August 2010
religulous, by bill maher - movie review - favorite quotes
this will be an ongoing post until i've gone through the whole movie, but i am going to start listing my favorite points and quotes from this wonderful movie (Bill Maher == BM):
*********
00:11:00
*********
BM: So, Dr. Collins, you are a brilliant, brilliant scientist, the head of the Human Genome Project. Now here's what's so puzzling is that you are the one scientist--
[subtext: 93% of scientists in the american national academy of sciences are atheist or agnostic]
the one famous scientist anyway--who's also religious. Explain that to me.
Dr. Francis Collins (DFC): I would argue that if you look at the evidence, the historical evidence of Christ's existence is overwhelming.
BM: What evidence? I mean, I've never even heard anyone propose that there's evidence.
DFC: When I read the New Testament, it reads to me as the record of eyewitnesses who put down what they saw.
BM: You know they weren't eyewitnesses.
DFC: They were close to that.
BM: No.
DFC: Within a couple of decades of eyewitnesses.
BM: Okay. Would that stand up in a laboratory as absolute foolproof evidence that something happened?
DFC: You are setting up a standard for proof that I think would really be an almost impossible standard to meet.
*********
00:12:58
*********
BM: I'm surprised that things that are very important to the story, like the virgin birth, isn't in all four of them.
DFC: Wouldn't you really expect that kind of discordance when you're thinking about the way in which these documents came into being?
BM: But you'd think if you were one of Christ's biographers, that would be sort of an important thing not to leave out. "Oh, God, he was also born of a virgin."
BM: They don't notice the virgin birth. You know, I think that is something if you were any sort of reporter you'd put into the story. What editor looks at the facts and goes, "Yeah, but take out the thing about the virgin birth. That's not interesting."
*********
00:15:35
*********
BM: Reverend. Is that what I call you?
Jeremiah Cummings (JC): No, just call me... doctor.
BM: Doctor?
[subtext: Jeremiah Cummings is not a doctor.]
JC: Yeah.
[subtext: he does not have a degree...of any kind.]
*********
00:16:06
*********
JC: teddy pendergrass, who led the song, he was ordained a minister when he was 10 years old.
BM: what do you think it says about religion and how serious it is, when you can be a minister when you're 10?
*********
00:20:22
*********
BM:
Sodom and Gomorrah.
Apparently, it was a pretty wicked place.
How wicked?
Well let's just say that what happened in Gomorrah, stayed in Gomorrah.
That is until God got wind of it, so he sent two angels to investigate.
Now the angels went to the house of the one godly man in town-- Lot.
And the townspeople tried to rape them.
Now Lot, not wanting his town to get the reputation as the kind of place that would rape angels, offered up to the mob his own daughters to rape.
And he was the good guy in town.
*********
00:22:48
*********
Pastor John Westcott (Exchange Ministries) (JW): But I will be honest with you. The reality's a lot of people come here and go right back into whatever they came from.
BM: Because they're gay!
JW: I believe that it's sin.
BM: Excuse me, but don't you have it, no pun intended, ass-backwards?
JW: Meaning?
BM: Meaning homosexuality is something that occurs in nature.
...
JW: Nobody's born gay. There's no scientific or--
BM: Really? Have you ever met Little Richard?
...
JW: There's no scientific data that proves that anyone is--there's no gay gene.
***WHAT BILL MAHER SHOULD HAVE SAID HERE: there's no heterosexual gene either =)***
...
BM: All of the proscriptions against homosexuality come from the Old Testament. Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. And if it's so important, why didn't he ever bring it up?
JW: We could pick lots of little things that he didn't specifically talk about.
BM: But this is a big thing.
...
BM: But what is your explanation for the millions and millions of people around the world who are leading homosexual lives...
JW: Well, it's not millions.
BM: ...have no interest in anyone of the opposite sex? Are they all faking just to piss off Jesus?
JW: They didn't choose this. They didn't desire it.
BM: Right, they were born gay.
JW: No, they weren't born that way. It's because of the insecurity within theirselves.
BM: It takes a lot of security to walk out of the house with assless chaps.
JW: They're not happy, most of them.
BM: They're called gay. They took the word. Some of them look positively thrilled.
JW: No, they are people who are really not complete in who they are as men or women.
BM: That's a pretty big judgment for a Christian.
JW: It's not a judgment.
BM: That's not a judgment? That you are sitting here telling these people who you don't even know that they're incomplete because they're not like you?
JW: I mean, it's not the people you suspect that are gay, that are gay.
BM: People like the Reverend Ted Haggard... "Moral purity is better than immorality." ...who kept meeting homosexual prostitutes in a hotel room and having gay sex with speed.
*********
00:29:06
*********
Steve Burg, Ex Jew for Jesus (SB): God is not that busy where He can't spend time listening to you when you really want to talk to Him, anytime.
BM: If Santa Claus can hit every house in the world in one night--
SB: I don't believe in Santa Claus.
BM: Of course not, that's ridiculous. That's one man flying all around the world and dropping presents down a chimney. That's ridiculous. One man hearing everybody murmur to him at the same time, that I get.
*********
00:29:55
*********
BM: You're 100% sure that after you die, you'll go to a better place.
SB: I know I'll be with God. l'll be with Jesus.
BM: And that's a better place.
SB: Even if it was in a garbage can, which I know it won't be, but even if it was, just the fact that i'm with Jesus, to me, is good.
BM: it's a better place.
SB: it's a better place.
BM: Then why don't you kill yourself?
SB: Because God still has a mission for me here.
BM: Oh, I see.
SB: i'm thinking of Jonah. God sent Jonah on a mission.
BM: When did the part of the story come when Jonah lived in the whale?
SB: It was a great fish.
BM: It's one of my favorite nonsense stories, Jonah living inside of the whale. And their answer unfailingly is ''The Bible doesn't say whale. It says big fish.'' Oh, yeah, big fish, that makes--i'm sorry I was obsessing on that it was a whale. it's a big fish. Of course you could live for three days in a big fish.
*********
00:32:33
*********
BM: How did this country get to be a Christian nation? I've read a lot of quotes from all the Founding Fathers. There are a lot of quotes that explicitly say we're not a Christian nation:
"lighthouses are more useful than churches." -- benjamin franklin
"this would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it!" -- john adams
"christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." -- thomas jefferson
Ray Suarez (RS): well, and Jefferson's a particularly interesting case.
BM: Didn't he write his own Bible which divorced the New Testament from what he considered the unnecessary magic, bells and whistles?
RS: He took the Gospels, took out all of Jesus's miracles and took out all of Jesus's statements that claimed divinity, and put out a new book called ''The Faith and Moral Teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.'' We tend to lionize these guys and think of them all as the 12 Apostles plus the Founding Fathers, like they're in the same club or something. When in fact, these men understood very well that there was a difference between being Christian and being American.
BM: Right.
RS: In Jefferson's age, fewer people went to church less often.
Guy in BM's van (GBMV): Do you think that there are a lot of people who feel the way you do, but are afraid to speak out?
BM: Absolutely. Are you kidding? Yes, I think it is the great untapped minority in this country. In the last survey, I think it was 16% of Americans who now say they are absolutely unaffiliated with any religion, don't want to be in a religion, just don't go near me with religion. 16% of the population is a huge minority. It's bigger than Jews, blacks, homosexuals, NRA members, lots of people you could name who have lobbies that get everything they want or are at least are in the debate.
*********
00:34:27
*********
BM: So you've described yourself as an Evangelical Christian. You did a campaign ad where you said the most important lessons in life are in this book right here, meaning the Bible. Everyone in politics likes to brag that they're a person of faith. Why is faith good?
Mark Pryor, US Senator, Democrat (MP): Faith has a way of softening people. For example, if you look at the teachings of Jesus, he's very forgiving.
BM: He also said, "If a man doesn't abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned."
MP: Right. So? i do think, 'cause i'm a Christian, that Jesus is the way to be reconciled. And I do believe the actual literacy of that story. We'll let God sort out all the details of that on Judgment Day.
BM: What about the 10 Commandments? So many politicians talk about the 10 Commandments. Are they really the 10 most important moral--
MP: Are these the 10 suggestions? The 10 recommendations?
BM: But it's not really a wise list of 10. The first four are all about just worshipping God and basically that he's a jealous God, and he doesn't want you to have any other gods. The only two that are really laws are don't steal and don't kill. Why is this the wisest group of 10? lt doesn't include child abuse. lt doesn't include don't torture. lt doesn't include a lot of things-- rape--that I think if we were making a list today, we would probably include.
MP: Society is so different today and our culture is so radically different today.
BM: That's what i'm asking. We're in a different culture. Can you think of anything else that we still cleave to from the Bronze Age?
MP: Well...
Monday, 15 February 2010
a conversation about life, choices, rules and religion
a conversation i had recently with someone in oslo:
--------------------------
CH
interesting..
11:44amTLG
about daniel?
11:45amCH
yeah..
11:45amTLG
yeah i never remembered reading that before
11:45amCH
im wondering where the limits go..
hvor går grensene...for hva som er godt og hva som ikke er godt..
11:45amTLG
i think it all depends on you yourself
11:45amCH
tror ikke det er det vi opplever som "magi" som ikke er godt
11:45amTLG
how you feel
11:46amCH
yes..
11:46amTLG
i think we limit ourselves
11:46amCH
how much one can take..
11:46amTLG
you can choose not to limit yourself
i am kind of experimenting with this
so CH do you still live in EVJN?
i remember meeting you and your sister, but only for a day or two
11:47amCH
husker jeg fikk i en velsignelse en gang...ser dine spm om ting som er viktig..mye mellom himmel og jord vi ikke forstår men kan ikke si alt nå..
11:47amTLG
and i remember tnns or whatever his name was
11:48amCH
d var nesten før jeg var bevisst mine egne spm;)
11:48amTLG
så hvilke spørsmål har du?
11:48amCH
so we only met twice he he...i remember you well..
11:48amTLG
:):)
11:49amCH
we all had a waterfight in EVJN..
i live in oslo
11:49amTLG
oh cool
11:49amCH
LHZ and DZ in EVJN
11:49amTLG
we live in BRGNN
11:49amCH
ok..
cool
11:49amTLG
is DZ some kind of returned missionary?
11:49amCH
yep
form new york..
11:50amTLG
i thought i remembered something about that
11:50amCH
they met in EVJN..
11:50amTLG
is he ok?
for your sister?
11:50amCH
yes he is!
11:50amTLG
thats good
11:50amCH
he is a good man! i remember my grandmother...
11:50amTLG
great
11:50amCH
she liked him!
and she has good vibes;)
so do you stilll relate to the church?
11:52amTLG
we go every now and then
im still in a reevaluation process of everything i believe in
reading a lot of different philosophies
11:55amTLG
i still think the lds church has good intentions and the world would be a nicer place to live if everybody was nice like jesus (but not necessarily mormon) :):) i am no fan of mormon culture though
i feel very different than many people in the church, like i cant relate/understand them
11:56amCH
how?
how do you feel about the gospel?
11:56amTLG
and there are certain things that i dislike or think actually arent relevant
ill have to think about it and make a list, i have been wanting to do this for a while now
the gospel in general i feel is a good thing
11:57amCH
i cant let go of it i think..
11:58amTLG
but i think sometimes certain rules overstep peoples privacy or are based on some kind of long christian tradition
11:58amCH
there are many things about the culture im not a great fan of..
11:58amTLG
like masturbation, for example
i just really cant see that this should be a big deal
and i remember growing up feeling ashamed, and i dont want to feel that way, i think it is a great tool that can help a lot of people live better lives
especially in marriage
you asked, so im explaining myself :):)
if you look at the word "onanering" in norwegian, it is completely wrong
if you read the story of onan, it has nothing to do with masturbation, it is about coitus interruptus
meaning that instead of inseminating the woman to produce offspring for his dead brother (he was commanded to do this), he pulled out instead right before ejaculation
sorry, but i think this is important :):)
12:02pmCH
its ok..
12:02pmTLG
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/38
yeah like you, i am not letting go of the church, i dont think i have to either
12:03pmCH
i think like you said..in the end we choose our limits..
12:03pmTLG
there is much good, and i will hold onto the good and disregard what i feel is not right
12:03pmCH
but the guidence is there to help..
12:04pmTLG
sure
12:04pmCH
there are much i could contribute with..
12:04pmTLG
also i think many people in the church suffer from some sort of rameumptom complex
12:04pmCH
buts to me its a bit personal..
12:05pmTLG
yes and it should be personal
i dont like the idea of people mediating between me and god
unless i feel it is of some help and i have asked for it
12:05pmCH
i understand..
like nephi...figure it out in your own mind and then ask me..
12:06pmTLG
i dont like how many people in the church act as if lds are gods chosen people
yeah right
good example
i try to do that
12:07pmCH
but sometimes i know im trying to figure it out on my own cause im afarid wht his answer will be;)
12:07pmTLG
:):)
12:07pmCH
i think thats my gretest question...
12:08pmTLG
well, i think in the end it is gods responsibility to prove himself and his doctrines to us
i always compare my relationship to him, with my own kids
i expect god to be even nicer to me and more understanding and loving to me than i am with my own kids
and dont misread that
i am trying to be the best father i can be for them
but i feel that an omnipotent god is a lot more advanced and capable than i am
i dont put my kids to tests and ask them to do meaningless stuff and i try to explain as best i can the rewards they will get if they do what i ask of them
i always want to help them learn and grow and be happy and find out what they want to do with their lives
12:12pmCH
i understand..but i also like the principle that...if you want some tougher muscles you must lift some heavy wights..?
the balance between there is the art...
between lead and let go...
12:13pmTLG
yes there is a balance, and that balance is different for everyone
12:13pmCH
true.
12:13pmTLG
my children are all very different
some things work for some or one of them only
or none
:):)
12:14pmCH
hehe..
i know...
so i guess that s the question...
12:14pmTLG
thinking out loud here... back to masturbation, it has been around for mans entire existence and is never mentioned in any of the scriptures...
12:14pmCH
hvor er mine grenser...?
12:15pmTLG
ja, det er det du som bestemmer til syvende og sist
and when the church makes rules of how people can dress, i feel that is wrong
they should have nothing to do with fashion
12:16pmCH
but do you understand the principle?
12:17pmTLG
the thing is that fashions change, what is acceptable today wasnt acceptable before...
12:18pmTLG
it has nothing to do with any eternal truth
12:18pmCH
hey..adam and eve felt natural being nakes.;);)
12:18pmTLG
yes
12:18pmCH
naked...thers a bueuty in that..
12:18pmTLG
there is actually a mormon nudist forum on the internet :):)
i saw an interesting movie the other day with peter o'toole, where he said "the most beautiful thing a man will ever see in his lifetime is the body of a naked woman"
i have to somewhat agree :):)
12:22pmTLG
god has seen everybody naked too so.... and think about spirits roaming around, they see everything too :):)
12:23pmCH
i dont think theres another answer than we already know..we are just searching and trying pushing the gresser..
grenser..
12:24pmTLG
i was talking to a friend the other day, hes lds, and we were talking about healing, and he said, i kid you not, i think anybody who heals, who is not doing it by the priesthood is doing it by the poewr of the devil. i was completely shocked
12:24pmCH
hm...
so what does he think about the light of christ then?
12:24pmTLG
i cant believe some people can be so narrow minded
12:25pmCH
i talked to ole podhorny...he said..there is diffrence on healers..
12:25pmTLG
yeah i think i mentioned something about that, and that god has people/prophets all over the world, the lds church even teaches this
there are also stories of a pioneer woman who healed some oxen
she didnt just heal a person, she healed animals
what did he say?
12:26pmCH
he said it depens on the healer...
12:26pmTLG
yes i think so too
12:26pmCH
det er forskjell på healere..sa han..
i talked alot with a lady who reads energy...
gets "bilder"...på det du er osv..
12:27pmTLG
yes there are people with good intentions and people with bad intentions, some have mixed intentions
12:27pmCH
yes..
12:27pmTLG
i think few things are black and white
12:28pmCH
but god...is pure..
all white..;);)
12:28pmTLG
my wife and i have been watching shows like "åndednes makt" and "jakten på den 6. sans" and it has really opened my eyes
12:28pmCH
bacause he is able to see the whole picture and konsekvenser..
12:29pmTLG
but i think the whole picture is constantly in motion because people have free will
part of the "whole picture"
at least
12:32pmCH
what di you mean?
12:32pmTLG
it depends on how you define "the whole picture"
12:32pmCH
yes..
im thinking with gods knowledge..
im often thinking about the story about the son who went away and came back...the big party that was thrown at him..
and i remember thinking..but he had alot of experience out there..
and the son home...faithful servant..
i often felt like him...
feeling...lurt...
12:36pmCH
how do you define the whole picture?
12:38pmTLG
i think maybe i cant because i dont know what really is out there, i dont gods position, i think we need more info about who god really is and his relationship to everything else in the multiverse
i dont know gods position
physically
is he outside of our universe? are there multiple universes? (multiverse)
the lds church teaches that he has a father, etc, and that everything is eternal
but science has shown that at least our solar system is about 4.6 billion years old, so things have a beginning and most likely an end
so it is hard to say what the whole picture really is, i know what i know, but i also "know" that there are things i dont know
if you know what im talking about? :):)
12:40pmCH
yes...
i just thought about what you said about human and whole picture..
12:41pmTLG
all samples of the earth, moon, mars and meteorites date no further back than 4.6 billion years
i think that is interesting
and significant
12:41pmCH
but didnt god create earth..
?
cant a planet end but our exixtance not end?
12:42pmTLG
there is something called the cambrian explosion that points to the theory of a creation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
12:42pmCH
maybe i dont understand your point of view?
12:42pmTLG
interesting
yes i think we are spirit inside of a physical body
there is way too much evidence to be able to deny that
so if a planet ends, we as spirit will continue, i believe
12:43pmCH
so how does a planets end contridicts with everything eternal?
12:43pmTLG
but where is the question
!
since spirits from earth live on earth
if earth was suddenly blown to pieces by a star wars death star, where would all the spirits go?
12:44pmCH
åndeverden..he he
12:44pmTLG
i just meant that the beginning was interesting, but we have no explanation about the beginning of god
but åndeverdenen is here on earth
according to lds doctrine
12:45pmCH
?
just in another consciousness?
12:46pmTLG
well we normally dont see spirits, but many people do, and researches have definitely proven the existance of their energy
spirit is a physical energy
12:46pmCH
but wherer d they help them over to the other side?
12:46pmTLG
in some form of matter
12:46pmCH
and does lds teach this?
12:46pmTLG
exactly, i am still trying to learn more about that "føre dem over til den andre siden"
i dont understand that
yet
12:47pmCH
but the lds church teeches that åndeverdenen is here on earth?
12:47pmTLG
in alma it says that when a spirit leaves the body it is immediately returned to the god that made it
12:47pmCH
but if chirst has a physical perfect body?
12:47pmTLG
but this has to be a figure of speech
or can be true in some cases and in other places regarded as a figure of speech, it must have multiple meanings
well christ was given a resurrected body
and the lds church believes everybody will be given one at one point in time, and that many dead have already received their perfect body
the first resurrection is happening already, and started with the resurrection of christ
it is not something in the future
it started 2000 years ago
12:49pmCH
men jeg har forstått at de venter på tusenårsriket?
12:49pmTLG
and will continue throughout "the millenium", which also has theoretically started
12:50pmCH
tror du at vi trenger dåp? og tempelekteskap?
12:50pmTLG
alle må sikkert vente en stund, men de som må vente til etter tusenårsriket er de som skal stå opp i den andre oppstandelsen"
12:50pmCH
og de som har stått opp nå?
12:50pmTLG
jeg er ikke sikker på det egentlig
12:51pmCH
i feel so scizofrenic..i just waht to be free and happy and enjoy life..
12:51pmTLG
de som har stått opp vet jeg ikke hvor er, her, hos gud??
begge steder
??
12:51pmCH
but im still so dependent on understanding to be able to choose..
12:52pmTLG
i suggest you live free and enjoy life then :):)
and keep reading and thinking and when you truly feel that something sticks and feels right, then stick with it
like i said, it is truly gods responsibility to prove himself to us. he has sent us here and taken away our memory of the pre-existance, theoretically speaking
12:53pmCH
but we said yes..
12:53pmTLG
we were told that we said yes
12:54pmCH
we chose to do this experience..
12:54pmTLG
you dont remember saying yes do you?
12:54pmCH
but thats the point...a part of the challenge..
the lady ive been talking to say these..we chose to go down here to do our experiences on this level of energy..
12:55pmTLG
but god has put us in a state of no knowledge so it really is up to him to reveal himself to us
we cannot comprehend god if he doesnt help
convincingly
12:55pmCH
but i think its all there?
12:56pmTLG
well then you're convinced then?
:):)
12:56pmCH
hehe about what?
that god exists?
12:56pmTLG
about everything you're wondering about
if i erase my childrens memory and put them on an island, can i expect that they will find me without me doing anything?
12:57pmCH
no i cant see cnseqenses of all things..
12:57pmTLG
can i expect them to believe that they are my children and that i exist unless i show myself to them and reinstate their memory?
i think we are given way too little information and not enough understanding about eternal consequences, both good and bad
what can we really expect after this life?
some might say "everything that god has". but what does he have?
we have no clue
we know practically nothing about anything outside of this life
1:00pmCH
but isnit it the same things we experience here..just in another level??
so start imagine?;)
1:00pmTLG
i dont know, is it?
1:01pmCH
the power of our thoughts...
and effect...
in gods glory one think and make and physical effect maybe..
1:02pmTLG
if everyone is going to be resurrected, would there be put a physical barrier between me and my wife in the afterlife if we hadnt been married in the temple so we couldnt have sex, for example?
what IS temple marriage really+
?
what IS sealing children to their parents really for, when each of our children will be off doing things with their spouses? what is the whole point?
these are things i havent found answers to yet
i dont mean to appear negative CH, i am just asking honest questions :):) and i am still open and searching for answers to them :):)
1:03pmCH
it says one place...themple ordinances is to bond hele menneskeslekten..
1:04pmTLG
ok, but why?
bond them how?
1:04pmCH
why do i haveto suffer for my parents mistakes?
1:04pmTLG
right :):)
1:04pmCH
why do a whole generation suffer from another generations choices..
1:04pmTLG
exactly
1:05pmCH
i told this to my brother in law..he isaid..your trying to find a loop hole,)
i think he is right;)
1:05pmTLG
why was there ever any need for blacks to be denied the priesthood for thousands of years?
1:05pmCH
but then you have physical laws..
1:05pmTLG
i dont think he is right
1:05pmCH
and dna..
1:05pmTLG
i think those are honest questions
1:05pmCH
but my intention...
is trying to find o loop hole..
1:06pmTLG
well, yes only you know your intentions :):)
1:06pmCH
i knew that before he joked about it..
1:06pmTLG
but maybe you are trying to find a loophole because you cant understand some things
you are trying to find a loophole for a reason
1:07pmCH
its true..im wndering if im the weak soul who is in need of bounderies to be good..
1:07pmTLG
maybe you are and maybe that is good for you
the important thing is that you find what is good for you and makes you happy
apparently god wants us to be happy
I want to be happy :):)
people say the gospel is a plan of happiness, i am still trying to find out the meaning of this
i dont know if i have ever felt happy
i am happy when i get answers to my prayers and get what i want
dragging my children to church when they dont want to go is not happiness and is only stress
1:10pmCH
but the again do you have the whole picture of who you are as a soul?
1:10pmTLG
i have usually only felt restricted by certain rules
no i do not
i dont have the "whole picture"
i dont understand everything
we should be given the "whole picture" on a silver platter, then decide and choose where we go and what we do
that wouldnt erase the need for faith
it would give us correct information to base our decisions on
we would still have to have faith that we would get promised rewards
1:12pmCH
but how would you be tested on following direction of love and faith?
1:12pmTLG
i really think we have way too little information to base our decisions on, so we have to choose to live in a way that makes us happy, based on the information we have, no one can expect any more than that
by my actions
if i show love, if i am obedient
again i relate it to my relationship between me and my children
i explain the rules, i tell them the reward for obedience and the consequences for disobedience, and why obedience to the rules is important
i dont just tell them to do something and say "just trust me"
it is unfair and unkind to keep them in the dark
i WANT them to understand what i understand, so they can live happily
1:16pmCH
but isnt there a joy in trying some things for yourself..in the dark and then experience how one is able to find the way
1:16pmTLG
my whole purpose is to give them a better life than i have had, to avoid the mistakes i have made, but in the end after i have given them my knowledge it is still up to them to choose for themselves
but should we just let our children sit at the table and starve so they can figure out how to make food for themselves
?
there is a time for everything, yes
i also know i will not always be with them everywhere they go
and i will die sometime too, hopefully before they die
so they will get enough opportunities to learn on their own :):)
are you a parent?
1:18pmCH
so we are always on..hvor går grensene...til hvilken tid er hva rett?
nope
1:19pmTLG
once you become a parent, your world and way of thinking will be taken to a new/different level
it is something you have to experience :I)
1:19pmCH
yes probably..
1:19pmTLG
grensene, tror jeg er noe vi bør sette hver for oss
1:19pmCH
but i still watch my sisters being moms..and how they do it..
1:20pmTLG
it isnt the same :):)
trust me
1:20pmCH
true
1:20pmTLG
it will be completely different when THEIR future hangs in your hands :):)
responsibility is a funny ingredient
1:21pmCH
true
--------------------------
CH
interesting..
11:44amTLG
about daniel?
11:45amCH
yeah..
11:45amTLG
yeah i never remembered reading that before
11:45amCH
im wondering where the limits go..
hvor går grensene...for hva som er godt og hva som ikke er godt..
11:45amTLG
i think it all depends on you yourself
11:45amCH
tror ikke det er det vi opplever som "magi" som ikke er godt
11:45amTLG
how you feel
11:46amCH
yes..
11:46amTLG
i think we limit ourselves
11:46amCH
how much one can take..
11:46amTLG
you can choose not to limit yourself
i am kind of experimenting with this
so CH do you still live in EVJN?
i remember meeting you and your sister, but only for a day or two
11:47amCH
husker jeg fikk i en velsignelse en gang...ser dine spm om ting som er viktig..mye mellom himmel og jord vi ikke forstår men kan ikke si alt nå..
11:47amTLG
and i remember tnns or whatever his name was
11:48amCH
d var nesten før jeg var bevisst mine egne spm;)
11:48amTLG
så hvilke spørsmål har du?
11:48amCH
so we only met twice he he...i remember you well..
11:48amTLG
:):)
11:49amCH
we all had a waterfight in EVJN..
i live in oslo
11:49amTLG
oh cool
11:49amCH
LHZ and DZ in EVJN
11:49amTLG
we live in BRGNN
11:49amCH
ok..
cool
11:49amTLG
is DZ some kind of returned missionary?
11:49amCH
yep
form new york..
11:50amTLG
i thought i remembered something about that
11:50amCH
they met in EVJN..
11:50amTLG
is he ok?
for your sister?
11:50amCH
yes he is!
11:50amTLG
thats good
11:50amCH
he is a good man! i remember my grandmother...
11:50amTLG
great
11:50amCH
she liked him!
and she has good vibes;)
so do you stilll relate to the church?
11:52amTLG
we go every now and then
im still in a reevaluation process of everything i believe in
reading a lot of different philosophies
11:55amTLG
i still think the lds church has good intentions and the world would be a nicer place to live if everybody was nice like jesus (but not necessarily mormon) :):) i am no fan of mormon culture though
i feel very different than many people in the church, like i cant relate/understand them
11:56amCH
how?
how do you feel about the gospel?
11:56amTLG
and there are certain things that i dislike or think actually arent relevant
ill have to think about it and make a list, i have been wanting to do this for a while now
the gospel in general i feel is a good thing
11:57amCH
i cant let go of it i think..
11:58amTLG
but i think sometimes certain rules overstep peoples privacy or are based on some kind of long christian tradition
11:58amCH
there are many things about the culture im not a great fan of..
11:58amTLG
like masturbation, for example
i just really cant see that this should be a big deal
and i remember growing up feeling ashamed, and i dont want to feel that way, i think it is a great tool that can help a lot of people live better lives
especially in marriage
you asked, so im explaining myself :):)
if you look at the word "onanering" in norwegian, it is completely wrong
if you read the story of onan, it has nothing to do with masturbation, it is about coitus interruptus
meaning that instead of inseminating the woman to produce offspring for his dead brother (he was commanded to do this), he pulled out instead right before ejaculation
sorry, but i think this is important :):)
12:02pmCH
its ok..
12:02pmTLG
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/gen/38
yeah like you, i am not letting go of the church, i dont think i have to either
12:03pmCH
i think like you said..in the end we choose our limits..
12:03pmTLG
there is much good, and i will hold onto the good and disregard what i feel is not right
12:03pmCH
but the guidence is there to help..
12:04pmTLG
sure
12:04pmCH
there are much i could contribute with..
12:04pmTLG
also i think many people in the church suffer from some sort of rameumptom complex
12:04pmCH
buts to me its a bit personal..
12:05pmTLG
yes and it should be personal
i dont like the idea of people mediating between me and god
unless i feel it is of some help and i have asked for it
12:05pmCH
i understand..
like nephi...figure it out in your own mind and then ask me..
12:06pmTLG
i dont like how many people in the church act as if lds are gods chosen people
yeah right
good example
i try to do that
12:07pmCH
but sometimes i know im trying to figure it out on my own cause im afarid wht his answer will be;)
12:07pmTLG
:):)
12:07pmCH
i think thats my gretest question...
12:08pmTLG
well, i think in the end it is gods responsibility to prove himself and his doctrines to us
i always compare my relationship to him, with my own kids
i expect god to be even nicer to me and more understanding and loving to me than i am with my own kids
and dont misread that
i am trying to be the best father i can be for them
but i feel that an omnipotent god is a lot more advanced and capable than i am
i dont put my kids to tests and ask them to do meaningless stuff and i try to explain as best i can the rewards they will get if they do what i ask of them
i always want to help them learn and grow and be happy and find out what they want to do with their lives
12:12pmCH
i understand..but i also like the principle that...if you want some tougher muscles you must lift some heavy wights..?
the balance between there is the art...
between lead and let go...
12:13pmTLG
yes there is a balance, and that balance is different for everyone
12:13pmCH
true.
12:13pmTLG
my children are all very different
some things work for some or one of them only
or none
:):)
12:14pmCH
hehe..
i know...
so i guess that s the question...
12:14pmTLG
thinking out loud here... back to masturbation, it has been around for mans entire existence and is never mentioned in any of the scriptures...
12:14pmCH
hvor er mine grenser...?
12:15pmTLG
ja, det er det du som bestemmer til syvende og sist
and when the church makes rules of how people can dress, i feel that is wrong
they should have nothing to do with fashion
12:16pmCH
but do you understand the principle?
12:17pmTLG
the thing is that fashions change, what is acceptable today wasnt acceptable before...
12:18pmTLG
it has nothing to do with any eternal truth
12:18pmCH
hey..adam and eve felt natural being nakes.;);)
12:18pmTLG
yes
12:18pmCH
naked...thers a bueuty in that..
12:18pmTLG
there is actually a mormon nudist forum on the internet :):)
i saw an interesting movie the other day with peter o'toole, where he said "the most beautiful thing a man will ever see in his lifetime is the body of a naked woman"
i have to somewhat agree :):)
12:22pmTLG
god has seen everybody naked too so.... and think about spirits roaming around, they see everything too :):)
12:23pmCH
i dont think theres another answer than we already know..we are just searching and trying pushing the gresser..
grenser..
12:24pmTLG
i was talking to a friend the other day, hes lds, and we were talking about healing, and he said, i kid you not, i think anybody who heals, who is not doing it by the priesthood is doing it by the poewr of the devil. i was completely shocked
12:24pmCH
hm...
so what does he think about the light of christ then?
12:24pmTLG
i cant believe some people can be so narrow minded
12:25pmCH
i talked to ole podhorny...he said..there is diffrence on healers..
12:25pmTLG
yeah i think i mentioned something about that, and that god has people/prophets all over the world, the lds church even teaches this
there are also stories of a pioneer woman who healed some oxen
she didnt just heal a person, she healed animals
what did he say?
12:26pmCH
he said it depens on the healer...
12:26pmTLG
yes i think so too
12:26pmCH
det er forskjell på healere..sa han..
i talked alot with a lady who reads energy...
gets "bilder"...på det du er osv..
12:27pmTLG
yes there are people with good intentions and people with bad intentions, some have mixed intentions
12:27pmCH
yes..
12:27pmTLG
i think few things are black and white
12:28pmCH
but god...is pure..
all white..;);)
12:28pmTLG
my wife and i have been watching shows like "åndednes makt" and "jakten på den 6. sans" and it has really opened my eyes
12:28pmCH
bacause he is able to see the whole picture and konsekvenser..
12:29pmTLG
but i think the whole picture is constantly in motion because people have free will
part of the "whole picture"
at least
12:32pmCH
what di you mean?
12:32pmTLG
it depends on how you define "the whole picture"
12:32pmCH
yes..
im thinking with gods knowledge..
im often thinking about the story about the son who went away and came back...the big party that was thrown at him..
and i remember thinking..but he had alot of experience out there..
and the son home...faithful servant..
i often felt like him...
feeling...lurt...
12:36pmCH
how do you define the whole picture?
12:38pmTLG
i think maybe i cant because i dont know what really is out there, i dont gods position, i think we need more info about who god really is and his relationship to everything else in the multiverse
i dont know gods position
physically
is he outside of our universe? are there multiple universes? (multiverse)
the lds church teaches that he has a father, etc, and that everything is eternal
but science has shown that at least our solar system is about 4.6 billion years old, so things have a beginning and most likely an end
so it is hard to say what the whole picture really is, i know what i know, but i also "know" that there are things i dont know
if you know what im talking about? :):)
12:40pmCH
yes...
i just thought about what you said about human and whole picture..
12:41pmTLG
all samples of the earth, moon, mars and meteorites date no further back than 4.6 billion years
i think that is interesting
and significant
12:41pmCH
but didnt god create earth..
?
cant a planet end but our exixtance not end?
12:42pmTLG
there is something called the cambrian explosion that points to the theory of a creation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion
12:42pmCH
maybe i dont understand your point of view?
12:42pmTLG
interesting
yes i think we are spirit inside of a physical body
there is way too much evidence to be able to deny that
so if a planet ends, we as spirit will continue, i believe
12:43pmCH
so how does a planets end contridicts with everything eternal?
12:43pmTLG
but where is the question
!
since spirits from earth live on earth
if earth was suddenly blown to pieces by a star wars death star, where would all the spirits go?
12:44pmCH
åndeverden..he he
12:44pmTLG
i just meant that the beginning was interesting, but we have no explanation about the beginning of god
but åndeverdenen is here on earth
according to lds doctrine
12:45pmCH
?
just in another consciousness?
12:46pmTLG
well we normally dont see spirits, but many people do, and researches have definitely proven the existance of their energy
spirit is a physical energy
12:46pmCH
but wherer d they help them over to the other side?
12:46pmTLG
in some form of matter
12:46pmCH
and does lds teach this?
12:46pmTLG
exactly, i am still trying to learn more about that "føre dem over til den andre siden"
i dont understand that
yet
12:47pmCH
but the lds church teeches that åndeverdenen is here on earth?
12:47pmTLG
in alma it says that when a spirit leaves the body it is immediately returned to the god that made it
12:47pmCH
but if chirst has a physical perfect body?
12:47pmTLG
but this has to be a figure of speech
or can be true in some cases and in other places regarded as a figure of speech, it must have multiple meanings
well christ was given a resurrected body
and the lds church believes everybody will be given one at one point in time, and that many dead have already received their perfect body
the first resurrection is happening already, and started with the resurrection of christ
it is not something in the future
it started 2000 years ago
12:49pmCH
men jeg har forstått at de venter på tusenårsriket?
12:49pmTLG
and will continue throughout "the millenium", which also has theoretically started
12:50pmCH
tror du at vi trenger dåp? og tempelekteskap?
12:50pmTLG
alle må sikkert vente en stund, men de som må vente til etter tusenårsriket er de som skal stå opp i den andre oppstandelsen"
12:50pmCH
og de som har stått opp nå?
12:50pmTLG
jeg er ikke sikker på det egentlig
12:51pmCH
i feel so scizofrenic..i just waht to be free and happy and enjoy life..
12:51pmTLG
de som har stått opp vet jeg ikke hvor er, her, hos gud??
begge steder
??
12:51pmCH
but im still so dependent on understanding to be able to choose..
12:52pmTLG
i suggest you live free and enjoy life then :):)
and keep reading and thinking and when you truly feel that something sticks and feels right, then stick with it
like i said, it is truly gods responsibility to prove himself to us. he has sent us here and taken away our memory of the pre-existance, theoretically speaking
12:53pmCH
but we said yes..
12:53pmTLG
we were told that we said yes
12:54pmCH
we chose to do this experience..
12:54pmTLG
you dont remember saying yes do you?
12:54pmCH
but thats the point...a part of the challenge..
the lady ive been talking to say these..we chose to go down here to do our experiences on this level of energy..
12:55pmTLG
but god has put us in a state of no knowledge so it really is up to him to reveal himself to us
we cannot comprehend god if he doesnt help
convincingly
12:55pmCH
but i think its all there?
12:56pmTLG
well then you're convinced then?
:):)
12:56pmCH
hehe about what?
that god exists?
12:56pmTLG
about everything you're wondering about
if i erase my childrens memory and put them on an island, can i expect that they will find me without me doing anything?
12:57pmCH
no i cant see cnseqenses of all things..
12:57pmTLG
can i expect them to believe that they are my children and that i exist unless i show myself to them and reinstate their memory?
i think we are given way too little information and not enough understanding about eternal consequences, both good and bad
what can we really expect after this life?
some might say "everything that god has". but what does he have?
we have no clue
we know practically nothing about anything outside of this life
1:00pmCH
but isnit it the same things we experience here..just in another level??
so start imagine?;)
1:00pmTLG
i dont know, is it?
1:01pmCH
the power of our thoughts...
and effect...
in gods glory one think and make and physical effect maybe..
1:02pmTLG
if everyone is going to be resurrected, would there be put a physical barrier between me and my wife in the afterlife if we hadnt been married in the temple so we couldnt have sex, for example?
what IS temple marriage really+
?
what IS sealing children to their parents really for, when each of our children will be off doing things with their spouses? what is the whole point?
these are things i havent found answers to yet
i dont mean to appear negative CH, i am just asking honest questions :):) and i am still open and searching for answers to them :):)
1:03pmCH
it says one place...themple ordinances is to bond hele menneskeslekten..
1:04pmTLG
ok, but why?
bond them how?
1:04pmCH
why do i haveto suffer for my parents mistakes?
1:04pmTLG
right :):)
1:04pmCH
why do a whole generation suffer from another generations choices..
1:04pmTLG
exactly
1:05pmCH
i told this to my brother in law..he isaid..your trying to find a loop hole,)
i think he is right;)
1:05pmTLG
why was there ever any need for blacks to be denied the priesthood for thousands of years?
1:05pmCH
but then you have physical laws..
1:05pmTLG
i dont think he is right
1:05pmCH
and dna..
1:05pmTLG
i think those are honest questions
1:05pmCH
but my intention...
is trying to find o loop hole..
1:06pmTLG
well, yes only you know your intentions :):)
1:06pmCH
i knew that before he joked about it..
1:06pmTLG
but maybe you are trying to find a loophole because you cant understand some things
you are trying to find a loophole for a reason
1:07pmCH
its true..im wndering if im the weak soul who is in need of bounderies to be good..
1:07pmTLG
maybe you are and maybe that is good for you
the important thing is that you find what is good for you and makes you happy
apparently god wants us to be happy
I want to be happy :):)
people say the gospel is a plan of happiness, i am still trying to find out the meaning of this
i dont know if i have ever felt happy
i am happy when i get answers to my prayers and get what i want
dragging my children to church when they dont want to go is not happiness and is only stress
1:10pmCH
but the again do you have the whole picture of who you are as a soul?
1:10pmTLG
i have usually only felt restricted by certain rules
no i do not
i dont have the "whole picture"
i dont understand everything
we should be given the "whole picture" on a silver platter, then decide and choose where we go and what we do
that wouldnt erase the need for faith
it would give us correct information to base our decisions on
we would still have to have faith that we would get promised rewards
1:12pmCH
but how would you be tested on following direction of love and faith?
1:12pmTLG
i really think we have way too little information to base our decisions on, so we have to choose to live in a way that makes us happy, based on the information we have, no one can expect any more than that
by my actions
if i show love, if i am obedient
again i relate it to my relationship between me and my children
i explain the rules, i tell them the reward for obedience and the consequences for disobedience, and why obedience to the rules is important
i dont just tell them to do something and say "just trust me"
it is unfair and unkind to keep them in the dark
i WANT them to understand what i understand, so they can live happily
1:16pmCH
but isnt there a joy in trying some things for yourself..in the dark and then experience how one is able to find the way
1:16pmTLG
my whole purpose is to give them a better life than i have had, to avoid the mistakes i have made, but in the end after i have given them my knowledge it is still up to them to choose for themselves
but should we just let our children sit at the table and starve so they can figure out how to make food for themselves
?
there is a time for everything, yes
i also know i will not always be with them everywhere they go
and i will die sometime too, hopefully before they die
so they will get enough opportunities to learn on their own :):)
are you a parent?
1:18pmCH
so we are always on..hvor går grensene...til hvilken tid er hva rett?
nope
1:19pmTLG
once you become a parent, your world and way of thinking will be taken to a new/different level
it is something you have to experience :I)
1:19pmCH
yes probably..
1:19pmTLG
grensene, tror jeg er noe vi bør sette hver for oss
1:19pmCH
but i still watch my sisters being moms..and how they do it..
1:20pmTLG
it isnt the same :):)
trust me
1:20pmCH
true
1:20pmTLG
it will be completely different when THEIR future hangs in your hands :):)
responsibility is a funny ingredient
1:21pmCH
true
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